What is is about Stormbringer?

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Maybe something like a task system, assigning some sort of competence gauge, would be a better way to do that. The current RQG annual stead management roll is the antithesis of such a use...

Exactly my point. Most other RPGs can accommodate such things by varying the Target Number required to succeed. In D20 a TN of 5 is beatable by anyone with a skill of +4 or better. BRP doesn't quite handle that as smoothly. While latter versions of BRP have an EASY difficulty that doubles skill, it doesn't mean as much. Doubling a 20% skill to 40% skill leaves a skill unreliable.

Now some some of tiers for skills that used a D10 or D20 to succeed at, for a normal success could handle that better. For instance, if driving a car was done with a D10 or D20 at low speed instead of D100, most drivers could actually maneuver at 10 mph without crashing.

[Bill the barbarian]

5 minutes ago, ThornPlutonius said:

Moorcock wrote/read some text bits on the Hawkwind album "Warrior on the Edge of Time".  He was definitely involved with the band.

and Sonic Attack is his voice as well. 

 

[el_octogono]

A really easy solution is to have a difficulty threshold expressed in percentiles. If your character has the same or higher skill he automatically succeeds, if not, you just roll. That way you'd also solve the infamous Call of Cthulhu issue with missing clues... Just set the threshold low enough.

[Joerg]

Sorry about derailing this further from the Eternal Champion, although the games I own based on Moorcock licenses all have in common that they offer a somewhat less crunchy skill-based system than any incarnation of RuneQuest.

 

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

The rules cover this very simply with automatic success. The Language Proficiency table covers knowledge. Likewise with stead management, if it's not dramatic you can say they succeed automatically. In the Harmast example, with -30%, it's dramatic enough for a roll.

Automatic success takes away the chance to get success ticks, which are the main selling point of the RuneQuest/BRP-system to me. (If I had wanted to play a game with experience points, I would never have started looking out for BRP...)

3 minutes ago, el_octogono said:

A really easy solution is to have a difficulty threshold expressed in percentiles. If your character has the same or higher skill he automatically succeeds, if not, you just roll. That way you'd also solve the infamous Call of Cthulhu issue with missing clues... Just set the threshold low enough.

Skill increase from prolonged activity involving that skill has been modeled in RQG, and might be used in some dialects of BRP games, too. RQG offers training (getting someone else to oversee your efforts for a gain in your skill of D6-1 or a flat 2 points (for chickens who don't trust dice probabilities), and "research" (or unsupervised training) for D6-2 points or 1 point flat. Each for a full season's worth of activity (RQ3 had it at hours commensurate to the current skill level).

There are always narrative ways to avoid a game being totally derailed by bad die rolls, although BRP or RuneQuest scenarios often have a way of failing to mention such ways.

"On a success on Spot Hidden, ..." implies that no such success doesn't let the entire subsequent scenario information enter your game, even though the party made an effort. I have seen this in quite recent offerings by Chaosium.

 

5 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Exactly my point. Most other RPGs can accommodate such things by varying the Target Number required to succeed. In D20 a TN of 5 is beatable by anyone with a skill of +4 or better. BRP doesn't quite handle that as smoothly. While latter versions of BRP have an EASY difficulty that doubles skill, it doesn't mean as much. Doubling a 20% skill to 40% skill leaves a skill unreliable.

BRP usually offers straight bonuses or maluses to skill rolls, but then chickens out when the bonus makes failure quite unlikely, offering an automatic success instead, rather than honoring the increased chance for a critical (or, if used, a special success). Critical (and special) success chance (and fumble chance) are calculated of the skill roll, all modifiers included.

Skill doubling is usually avoided in percentile games, unless you bring in something like automatic success (foregoing the opportunity to get a spectacular success).

5 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Now some some of tiers for skills that used a D10 or D20 to succeed at, for a normal success could handle that better. For instance, if driving a car was done with a D10 or D20 at low speed instead of D100, most drivers could actually maneuver at 10 mph without crashing.

One way to do this might be to use a D8 or a D6 instead of the D10 for the decimal die, but that leaves the result outside of the range for critical success or fumbles.

 

[Mugen]

On 2/19/2021 at 4:50 PM, Atgxtg said:

 I think that has a lot to do with expectations. I find that D&D players find RQ/BRP combat to be "boring" becuase of the parries, as it feels to them like nothing happened. Peopel used to other RPGs though tend to find the close calls and whittling down of weapons to be exciting.  . 

Hey, don't confuse me with a D&D player, please ! 😄

Here, I was speaking specifically of how Stormbringer handles parry, and not RuneQuest or other BRP variants. I know ways to make attack versus parry less basic than in SB.

Also, Stormbringer set your speak native language skill to INTx5, wich is significantly better than the 30% in RQ. But it's an odd exception in a system where characteristics usually only give 1% or 2% per point.

But I agree with everything you said otherwise. And it's not specific to d100 roll-under systems, too many roll-under systems are created with the maximum rolled number as a maximum.

Hero/Wars/Quest/World and Pendragon being notable exceptions.

Edited February 20, 2021 by Mugen

[David Scott]

16 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

and Sonic Attack is his voice as well. 

I saw Moorcock on stage with Hawkwind on the The Chronicle of the Black Sword tour in 1985. There's a DVD of the concert(s): https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hawkwind-Chronicle-Black-Sword-DVD/dp/B000050IM4. Features Elric on stage too... it was all a bit mad.

[Bill the barbarian]

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

I saw Moorcock on stage with Hawkwind on the The Chronicle of the Black Sword tour in 1985. There's a DVD of the concert(s): https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hawkwind-Chronicle-Black-Sword-DVD/dp/B000050IM4. Features Elric on stage too... it was all a bit mad.

I had never thought to say this to you, but DIE! Okay eat a horribly old ’smore and get kind o’ sick. Me envious, nah....

Definatly kidding, and very jealous!

[Atgxtg]

On 2/20/2021 at 5:52 PM, Mugen said:

Hey, don't confuse me with a D&D player, please ! 😄

Sorry 😳, my reponse might have been colored by my experiences with trying to help  D&D players to adjust to other RPGs. I find they often come with assumptions and expectations that don't fit the new game. For instance, one D&Der used to say that a fight wasn't a "tough fight" for him unless his character has lost at least half his hit points.  That sort of thinking in BRP is suicidal. 

 

On 2/20/2021 at 5:52 PM, Mugen said:

Here, I was speaking specifically of how Stormbringer handles parry, and not RuneQuest or other BRP variants. I know ways to make attack versus parry less basic than in SB.

I always though SB combat and parrying was exciting. At least prior to Elric!, thanks in large part to the riposte rule. With skill cappat at 100%, two skilled combantant's might make two or three attacks with the chances of parrying the subsequent attacks dropping off at an alarming rate.

On 2/20/2021 at 5:52 PM, Mugen said:

Also, Stormbringer set your speak native language skill to INTx5, wich is significantly better than the 30% in RQ. But it's an odd exception in a system where characteristics usually only give 1% or 2% per point.

Yeah, but it probably works out okay considering that you almost never have to roll you native language skill in either game. 

On 2/20/2021 at 5:52 PM, Mugen said:

But I agree with everything you said otherwise.

LOL! That's more than I ever agreed with.

On 2/20/2021 at 5:52 PM, Mugen said:

And it's not specific to d100 roll-under systems, too many roll-under systems are created with the maximum rolled number as a maximum.

It's kinda the problem between trying to give a good spread of skill competency while still keeping the mechanics simple to implement. The nice thing about D100 games is that a player can look at a skill score on the character sheet and have a pretty good idea of thier chance of success. It's much more clear and direct than most other systems.

On 2/20/2021 at 5:52 PM, Mugen said:

Hero/Wars/Quest/World and Pendragon being notable exceptions.

All of which were designed around an opposed roll game mechanic. That gives you the advantage of a sliding scale. That allows you to have a greater than 50% chance of success at some tasks without needing a skill greater than 50%.

[Atgxtg]

On 2/20/2021 at 1:25 PM, Joerg said:

Sorry about derailing this further from the Eternal Champion, although the games I own based on Moorcock licenses all have in common that they offer a somewhat less crunchy skill-based system than any incarnation of RuneQuest.

 

Automatic success takes away the chance to get success ticks, which are the main selling point of the RuneQuest/BRP-system to me. (If I had wanted to play a game with experience points, I would never have started looking out for BRP...)

Skill increase from prolonged activity involving that skill has been modeled in RQG, and might be used in some dialects of BRP games, too. RQG offers training (getting someone else to oversee your efforts for a gain in your skill of D6-1 or a flat 2 points (for chickens who don't trust dice probabilities), and "research" (or unsupervised training) for D6-2 points or 1 point flat. Each for a full season's worth of activity (RQ3 had it at hours commensurate to the current skill level).

There are always narrative ways to avoid a game being totally derailed by bad die rolls, although BRP or RuneQuest scenarios often have a way of failing to mention such ways.

"On a success on Spot Hidden, ..." implies that no such success doesn't let the entire subsequent scenario information enter your game, even though the party made an effort. I have seen this in quite recent offerings by Chaosium.

 

 

On 2/20/2021 at 1:25 PM, Joerg said:

BRP usually offers straight bonuses or maluses to skill rolls, but then chickens out when the bonus makes failure quite unlikely, offering an automatic success instead, rather than honoring the increased chance for a critical (or, if used, a special success). Critical (and special) success chance (and fumble chance) are calculated of the skill roll, all modifiers included.

Yes, but that doesn't match up all that well with reality at times. For instance, in real life someone with 50% skill with a firearm can probably hit a target most of the time. 

On 2/20/2021 at 1:25 PM, Joerg said:

Skill doubling is usually avoided in percentile games, unless you bring in something like automatic success (foregoing the opportunity to get a spectacular success).

One way to do this might be to use a D8 or a D6 instead of the D10 for the decimal die, but that leaves the result outside of the range for critical success or fumbles.

Yes, or my idea of using 1D10 or 1D20 for easy rolls instead of 1D100, but doing so limits the character to a normal success. So if a driver exam (a stressful task), might be rolled on 1d20 and someone would only need a skill of 20% to pass. 

 

[Kloster]

15 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes, but that doesn't match up all that well with reality at times. For instance, in real life someone with 50% skill with a firearm can probably hit a target most of the time. 

That is the role of situation modifiers. Easy task (like shooting a non moving target at close range, having enough time to aim) : +20 or +30%, which means your 50% character will hit his target most of the time. The skills value are positioned for normal use. For combat skills, that means having to avoid being hit, on moving targets, and not having time to aim. When in the army, when practicing, we had around 5 second for each shot, which is more than enough for quite careful aim, and I almost always put all my shots on target at 100m. When I went for the first time in a simulator, think time + aim time + fire time was below half a second, and roughly 1 bullet on 3 was on target at 20m.

[Jason D]

On the issue of whether Moorcock's relevant still, Tor Books seems to think so: 

https://www.tor.com/2021/03/02/revealing-omnibus-editions-of-michael-moorcocks-elric-of-melnibone/comment-page-1/?

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, Kloster said:

That is the role of situation modifiers. Easy task (like shooting a non moving target at close range, having enough time to aim) : +20 or +30%, which means your 50% character will hit his target most of the time.

But most people aren't skilled at 50%.

The typical soldier in a modern army only spends a few weeks on the rifle range, and probably doesn't have a skill much greater than 30%, yet quite a few will quality for marksman, hitting 75% of the time.

 

7 hours ago, Kloster said:

The skills value are positioned for normal use.

No, they are rated for use under stress. That's why most version of BRP don't require rolls for normal use. Characters don't have to make read/write rolls for every letter, drive rolls to get back and forth to work each day, and so on. 

7 hours ago, Kloster said:

For combat skills, that means having to avoid being hit, on moving targets, and not having time to aim.

In real combat people aim. At least they do if they are trying to hit something. They might not take that much time to aim, but they do aim. 

7 hours ago, Kloster said:

When in the army, when practicing, we had around 5 second for each shot, which is more than enough for quite careful aim, and I almost always put all my shots on target at 100m.

Yes, and in real combat there is the "problem" of the opposition shooting back, which tends to mess up people's aim and make them rush shots. 

7 hours ago, Kloster said:

When I went for the first time in a simulator, think time + aim time + fire time was below half a second, and roughly 1 bullet on 3 was on target at 20m.

And that's better than the average person in a gunfight too. I believe real word data shows a 15-20% chance of hitting a man-sized target at 7m or less. 

 

It's much like how a basketball player can shoot 90% from the free throw line, but only about 55% from the field and 35% at the three point line. 

 

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

The typical soldier in a modern army only spends a few weeks on the rifle range, and probably doesn't have a skill much greater than 30%, yet quite a few will quality for marksman, hitting 75% of the time.

This is simply the difference of combat having an effect on accuracy. Much easier on a range during qualifications than when hiding behind a wall with bullets and shrapnel whizzing about.

SDLeary

DOH! Should have read further! 😆

Edited March 3, 2021 by SDLeary
Should have read further

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

This is simply the difference of combat having an effect on accuracy. Much easier on a range during qualifications than when hiding behind a wall with bullets and shrapnel whizzing about.

Yes, exactly. Even with the stress of an instructor breathing down their necks it doesn't match up to actual combat condtions. 

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

SDLeary

DOH! Should have read further! 😆

Nah! You already were at the place I was pointing towards. 

The thing is, in play, people tend to avoid making rolls with skills that are below 50% if they can help it, as they expect to fail most of the time with those skills. Modifiers, if any, aren't something they can factor for, and can even vary from GM to GM. Compare that to a d20 game where a task is assigned a Target Number. A player with a +4 skill knows they have a 25% of making TN 20, 50% of making TN 15, 75% chance of making TN 10, and a 100% chance of making TN 5.  

While BRP does allow for modifiers, there is no example scale for applying those modifiers they way there is in D&D, or even Pendragon. 

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

This is simply the difference of combat having an effect on accuracy. Much easier on a range during qualifications than when hiding behind a wall with bullets and shrapnel whizzing about.

Completely agree.

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

And that's better than the average person in a gunfight too. I believe real word data shows a 15-20% chance of hitting a man-sized target at 7m or less. 

For me, and with a rifle, 20m is easier than 7m. Frankly, I've never been in a firefight and don't know if my results would have been as good under real combat conditions (but probably not).

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

No, they are rated for use under stress.

Yes, which is, for combat skills, the normal use.

[Lloyd Dupont]

2 hours ago, Kloster said:

5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

No, they are rated for use under stress.

Yes, which is, for combat skills, the normal use.

Who would have thought?! 😄 

Beside that, I didn't read the whole 6 pages... But I am pretty sure there are no firearms in Stormbringer! 😛

Edited March 3, 2021 by Lloyd Dupont

[SDLeary]

8 hours ago, Kloster said:

Yes, which is, for combat skills, the normal use.

In game, its normal use for all skills. If you have time and/or are not under stress then no need to roll. Skill % represents quality of result, or time to complete, rather than a yes/no achievement. 

SDLeary

Edited March 4, 2021 by SDLeary

[Mugen]

7 hours ago, SDLeary said:

In game, its normal use for all skills. If you have time and/or are not under stress then no need to roll. Skill % represents quality of result, or time to complete, rather than a yes/no achievement. 

SDLeary

That's how you deal with it, but I don't remember rules for this anywhere.

For instance, if two blacksmiths with different skill levels work on the same tool, does the one with the best skill create a better tool, or does he create it quicker ?

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Mugen

[albesias]

38 minutes ago, Mugen said:

That's how you deal with it, but I don't remember rules for this anywhere.

For instance, if two blacksmiths with different skill levels work on the same tool, does the one with the best skill create a better tool, or does he create it quicker ?

 

I've seen that kind of approaching to reading skills results somewhere. Maybe BGB? CoC7?

[NickMiddleton]

On 3/4/2021 at 12:58 PM, Mugen said:

That's how you deal with it, but I don't remember rules for this anywhere.

For instance, if two blacksmiths with different skill levels work on the same tool, does the one with the best skill create a better tool, or does he create it quicker ?

 

Which was he trying to achieve? I generally allow masters of skills to "pick" one improvement to the outcome (better quality, reduced production time, more economic of resources etc), where as "journeyman" (50-100 skill) have to roll a special success or better to get such a thing, and novices (skill < 50 ) don't get this option - it is a "companion" approach to some of the stuff I put in the Arete rules in Advanced Sorcery for Magic World, spun out of house rules I've been using with Elric! since the mid 1990's, which in turn evolved from stuff in the 2nd Keepers Companion (?) I think for Call of Cthulhu and some features of the Skyrealms of Jorune 2nd edition system I really liked.

Edited March 29, 2021 by NickMiddleton

[Atgxtg]

On 3/3/2021 at 6:52 PM, Lloyd Dupont said:

But I am pretty sure there are no firearms in Stormbringer! 😛

Then you haven't looked at Rogue Mistress or Hawkmoon.

[Atgxtg]

On 3/4/2021 at 8:41 AM, albesias said:

I've seen that kind of approaching to reading skills results somewhere. Maybe BGB? CoC7?

Probably HARN. It goes into a bit of detail with smithing. I think the base crafting times are based on, or adjusted by the smith's Skill Index (SI), which is basically the tens digit in their skill score.  Thus a smith with Smithing 90 (SI 9) will usually complete a task faster than a smith with Smithing 40 (SI 4) would.

[Pentallion]

On 3/2/2021 at 11:27 AM, Atgxtg said:

Sorry 😳, my reponse might have been colored by my experiences with trying to help  D&D players to adjust to other RPGs. I find they often come with assumptions and expectations that don't fit the new game. For instance, one D&Der used to say that a fight wasn't a "tough fight" for him unless his character has lost at least half his hit points.  That sort of thinking in BRP is suicidal.

Just tell them than in RQ a "tough fight" is when half your party is down.

[Atgxtg]

41 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Just tell them than in RQ a "tough fight" is when half your party is down.

LOL! By that point it's not so much a tough fight but a loss. 

They were the same group who when a character lost an arm, looked at me as if I had actually taken off the player's arm. They were so shocked it was actually hysterically funny. It's like when you play a game with children and don't let them win. 

[Pentallion]

You let children win?