I know you're charming me

[Roko Joko]

https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/HeroQuestRPG/20464.htmlThere's always a question in fantasy games about when you can use social or mind-affecting magic effectively, if ever.  Will the people affected by the magic know about it (either they see you making the magic or they can tell that you did) - and if they do, when will they know and how will they react?

GMs, how have you answered this for your Glorantha games?

Some Glorantha rule books talk about which casting actions or magical effects are perceptible, up to a point.  RQG is clear that rune magic is perceptible, and calls out Lie as an exception, but it's ambiguous about the other types.  HQG says direct magic can be perceptible, and that magic augments are not.  I don't think the rules texts are a good place to find a final answer on this - the texts don't give complete answers; it would be easy to house rule if they did; and in any case social stuff always involves GM judgment.

I'm thinking about this in the context of Glorantha games in general, but I'm asking here in RQ to make it more concrete.  In RQG some of the spells this might come up for are (Spirit) Glamour, (Rune) Arouse Passion, Charisma, Clever Tongue, Detect Honor, Detect Truth, Harmony, Inviolable, Lie*, Mind Read* (the last two have explicit guidance), (Sorcery) Dominate, Logical Clarity.

Edited to add background notes.
Earlier discussions:
  * Do spells have a visual component? . brp.org  2019
  * Spell Manifestations . brp.org 2018
  * bargaining chips . HeroQuest RPG list, Greg, Feb 5, 2004
Text in rule books about magic visibility:
  *  RQG 248 and 315, HQG 146, S:KoH 82, HQ2 (HQCR) 111, HQ1 (HQ:RiG) 98, HW (HW:RiG) 163.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Roko Joko

[Grievous]

I've thought about this in regards to charm effects in RPGs quite often. I've a question that I've used to bring perspective into this, though: have you ever talked to someone who is so attractive that you know that their beauty and/or charm is effecting your way to interact with them? Yeah, so yeah, you know you've been Charmed, but in most cases it kinda still doesn't matter/help.

[soltakss]

I just treat them as buffing, to make you seem a bit shinier than you normally would.

This works the same way as wearing a corset, push up bra, false eyelashes and makeup, sure you know what has happened but it still has an effect. Some people will say "No way, it's all false" and some people will say "Well, hello there".

[Ian Absentia]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

This works the same way as wearing a corset, push up bra, false eyelashes and makeup...

I wear none of these things.  Please, enlighten me.

!i!

[Atgxtg]

9 hours ago, Grievous said:

I've thought about this in regards to charm effects in RPGs quite often. I've a question that I've used to bring perspective into this, though: have you ever talked to someone who is so attractive that you know that their beauty and/or charm is effecting your way to interact with them? Yeah, so yeah, you know you've been Charmed, but in most cases it kinda still doesn't matter/help.

Yeah, I think you're onto something here. In many cases if somebody is impressed by, attracted to, etc. with someone else, and that someone else starts showing them some attention and is friendly, they will still be quite malleable, even though they are partially to fully aware of what is going on. The old trope of the cute girl talking the smart nerdy guy into doing her homework for her comes to mind. The guy knows he is being played by still goes along with it because he likes getting her attention. 

With a Charm spell, I think the problems might cropup later on, after the effect has worn off. 

 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

I wear none of these things.  Please, enlighten me.

!i!

Can we get a spoiler warning? I think this goes into he category of "things man was not meant to see before coffee." 

BTW, nice natural eyelashes!

[Ian Absentia]

21 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

BTW, nice natural eyelashes!

Thank you!  You should see my sister's and my daughter's -- naturally doubled rows of lashes.  Like mascara without the bother.

!i!

[Atgxtg]

21 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Thank you!  You should see my sister's and my daughter's -- naturally doubled rows of lashes.  Like mascara without the bother.

!i!

LOL!👀

[Lordabdul]

This topic has been discussed several times in the past, and I think it really comes down to different GMs doing it differently. We even touch quickly on this topic in the last episode of Wind Words, when @Joerg talks about Biturian being affected by a Lunar merchant's spells and almost sells his slaves when he really didn't want to.

I'm mostly with @soltakss and @Grievous here, where there are a lot of manipulation techniques in the real-world, and these spells are just an extension of that. The classic use of sex appeal is one, but there are so many others, like all the techniques used by salesmen, activists, cult leaders, and so on (I know the names of some of these techniques in French, but I don't know what they are in English so you'll have to look them up yourself).

One last important point is the difference between "noticed" and "aware". You might notice that this person you're talking to is very charismatic, that she reminds you of the votive images of Ernalda, and that the way her hair floats in the wind is so beautiful (making a mental note to ask her who's doing her braiding). You might however not be aware that this is an effect of magic, or that this is done right now explicitly to sway your opinion (maybe she's just as charismatic all the time!). The difference really lies in what kind of success levels both players get when they roll the dice... so you might notice and be aware and still fall for it, or you might notice but not be aware, or any of those combinations.

If anything, my only problem with social manipulation spells is that they are falling so short of their combat equivalent (combat spells typically give a LOT bigger bonuses). Whether that's a problem for anybody but me, or whether that means the social spells are too weak or the combat spells too strong, are probably best left for another thread.

Edited August 13, 2020 by lordabdul

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

If anything, my only problem with social manipulation spells is that they are falling so short of their combat equivalent (combat spells typically give a LOT bigger bonuses). Whether that's a problem for anybody but me, or whether that means the social spells are too weak or the combat spells too strong, are probably best left for another thread.

Probably because role playing games tend to be better at handling combat and similar specific tasks with rule mechanics as opposed to actual role playing/social interaction. That is, the rules help us arbitrate if character A deactivated character B and that that means, abut to little to tell us if Character A got Character B to like them, or convinced them of their point in a debate.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

The convention is that the immediate target of the Charisma or Lie is unaware.  A bit of suspension of disbelief, but otherwise those spells are pretty worthless.

But how about somebody else?  You are on roving patrol around the Palace, and you notice a suspicious character go to the gate, possibly cast a spell, chat up the guard and enter. Is it fair for you to continue to be suspicious?

[Psullie]

these spells can also be used on willing and knowing subjects, 'once more on to the breach' and all that, sometimes people want to be inspired or charmed as they are in need of a morale boost. Social spell are all about context, unlike combat in RPG's which IMO all too often lacks consequence. First impression do last. Sworn oaths are binding. Other long lasting consequences are also possible: Uther seducing Igrayne for example (according to the Boorman film)

Also magic is so ubiquitous in Glorantha that the act of casting Spirit magic is in itself nothing suspicious. Rune Magic would raise an eyebrow though and as I doubt many would recognise Sorcery, most believe it to be some odd form of spirit magic. 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The convention is that the immediate target of the Charisma or Lie is unaware.  A bit of suspension of disbelief, but otherwise those spells are pretty worthless.

Are they? That's the question. Think of someone who gets into a relationship with someone who they know to be a liar, yet they go along with it because they like them. Or someone who gets into a relationship with someone who they know cheats on their significant other, even though they have every reason to believe that said person will cheat on them too. 

One thing about people that we find charming is that we often go along with them despite knowing better, because they reach us emotionally and  we want to believe them. It why so many cons that get exposed seem to obvious to people on the outside. The people being conned probably had some suspicions but went along because they liked the scammer and wanted to trust them.

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The convention is that the immediate target of the Charisma or Lie is unaware.  A bit of suspension of disbelief, but otherwise those spells are pretty worthless.

LOL not it's not. Like I said, it depends on the GM.

Lie is specifically described as being undetectable (unlike virtually all the rest of Rune Magic), so let's look at Charisma. That spell increases the CHA of the spell target... why? Well, probably to make some kind of roll, right? So someone buffs a speaker, and the speaker then debates with somebody else. Rolls are made, and a debate winner is decided. It's somewhat irrelevant whether the opponent was aware that the speaker was using magic or not: even if they were aware, they would still have had to engage in the debate and roll the dice!

This is similar to how it doesn't do you much good to know that someone is swinging a Bladesharp'ed sword at you or just a normal sword: either way, you're going to have to parry or dodge, and roll the dice. At best, it helps you to know that your foe has cast Bladesharp/Charisma so that you can yourself prepare accordingly... assuming you have time. Imagine showing up to a political debate with a small notebook, only to realize that your opponent has an ear-piece linked to a dozen of staff members ready to give them all the relevant talking points and all the precise figures at a second's notice. You're in trouble -- if you had done some Intrigue rolls before hand or something, you would have known about this and could have made similar arrangements. And if you're not even aware that your opponent has this ear-piece (failed Insight or Scan roll), you will incorrectly think that they're super intelligent, witty, and able to retain vast amounts of information.

At least that's how I play Charisma. It's fine to play it with Charisma being undetectable.

Edited August 13, 2020 by lordabdul

[Bill the barbarian]

17 hours ago, Grievous said:

I've thought about this in regards to charm effects in RPGs quite often. I've a question that I've used to bring perspective into this, though: have you ever talked to someone who is so attractive that you know that their beauty and/or charm is effecting your way to interact with them? Yeah, so yeah, you know you've been Charmed, but in most cases it kinda still doesn't matter/help.

Perfect, this is the best way I have seen it put (sorry soltakss, I know you thought your argument superior...).

 

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Can we get a spoiler warning? I think this goes into he category of "things man was not meant to see before coffee." 

 

Zounds!

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

This topic has been discussed several times in the past, and I think it really comes down to different GMs doing it differently. We even touch quickly on this topic in the last episode of Wind Words, when @Joerg talks about Biturian being affected by a Lunar merchant's spells and almost sells his slaves when he really didn't want to.

 

Yep. chacun à son goût (hey, I was there too) 😎...

Cheers

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

LOL not it's not. Like I said, it depends on the GM.

Lie is specifically described as being undetectable (unlike virtually all the rest of Rune Magic), so let's look at Charisma. That spell increases the CHA of the spell target... why? Well, probably to make some kind of roll, right? So someone buffs a speaker, and the speaker then debates with somebody else. Rolls are made, and a debate winner is decided. It's somewhat irrelevant whether the opponent was aware that the speaker was using magic or not: even if they were aware, they would still have had to engage in the debate and roll the dice!

This is similar to how it doesn't do you much good to know that someone is swinging a Bladesharp'ed sword at you or just a normal sword: either way, you're going to have to parry or dodge, and roll the dice. At best, it helps you to know that your foe has cast Bladesharp/Charisma so that you can yourself prepare accordingly... assuming you have time. Imagine showing up to a political debate with a small notebook, only to realize that your opponent has an ear-piece linked to a dozen of staff members ready to give them all the relevant talking points and all the precise figures at a second's notice. You're in trouble -- if you had done some Intrigue rolls before hand or something, you would have known about this and could have made similar arrangements. And if you're not even aware that your opponent has this ear-piece (failed Insight or Scan roll), you will incorrectly think that they're super intelligent, witty, and able to retain vast amounts of information.

At least that's how I play Charisma. It's fine to play it with Charisma being undetectable.

And what if the spell is cast mid-debate?

[Nick Brooke]

26 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

And what if the spell is cast mid-debate?

Then it’s a zinger. A doozy. A phrase for the ages. A wonderful put-down. Maybe it was scripted and rehearsed within an inch of its life; maybe it was a moment of divine inspiration. Who knows? But it changes the debate going forward. You can’t ignore what was just said.

[g33k]

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

 ... because they reach us emotionally and  we want to believe them ...

Yeah, I think this one is all too self-evident these days. 
 >:-[

But this ain't the board for politics & current events.

[Roko Joko]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

So someone buffs a speaker, and the speaker then debates with somebody else. Rolls are made, and a debate winner is decided. It's somewhat irrelevant whether the opponent was aware that the speaker was using magic or not: even if they were aware, they would still have had to engage in the debate and roll the dice!

I don't understand why you think they would have had to engage in the debate.

"We'll discuss the price of my horses after you're finished with your sorcery."

"I'll debate you all night long as soon as you're ready to address the question on its merits rather than rely on that magic to turn our heads.  So what's it going to be?"

"Get the hell out of my temple."

[Richard S.]

16 minutes ago, Roko Joko said:

I don't understand why you think they would have had to engage in the debate.

"We'll discuss the price of my horses after you're finished with your sorcery."

"I'll debate you all night long as soon as you're ready to address the question on its merits rather than rely on that magic to turn our heads.  So what's it going to be?"

"Get the hell out of my temple."

Magic is a part of day-to-day life in Glorantha. People probably expect it to be used in all situations, it'd be odder for someone to not try and magically gain an advantage. Also keep in mind that Rune augments can be considered a form of magic too, so even if there's no overt spellcasting going on people will still be pulling on the cosmos to help them out.

[Jeff]

Going back to something I posted back in May 2019, the last time this came up:
 

As for Charisma making it easier to persuade others, yep that is exactly what it does. You might hate Yanioth, but damn when she puts on her goddess aspect, she is so damn impressive that it is really hard to not follow her. She's not cheating, any more than Baranthos is cheating when he uses that 100% Orate skill of his. You know Baranthos is about to make one of his barnraising speeches the moment you hear that hackneyed opening, "Seven summers past, the wild queen, Hendira, dreaming her dreams of ruin on your lovely Kingdom, sailed her hopes into the harbour of Nochet...." But despite knowing his oratorical techniques, even you find it a persuasive speech.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I think there are (at least) four GM's ways, in two branches

A ) GM and the table play runic spell as a magic spell like other. That is a power gained by the character, and that is all, then ..

 1) the GM doesn't care  (the scene is not important for example, so go quickly) or consider there is no other effect than gain the bonus. You succeed in charisma ? ok you have the bonus. You failed ? ok no bonus

 2) the GM consider there is visual effect like any other magic, so people can sense magic activities. You succeed in charisma ? ok you have the bonus; people can sense it but at the end of the day you succeed so you gain the bonus. You failed in charisma ? ok no bonus; people can sense it and may react or not. But are they able to know what spell you tried ? after all... no effect

 

B ) GM and the table play runic spell as divine intervention (not DI in the rule, just the god gives the power) then ..

3) the GM doesn't care  (the scene is not important for example, so go quickly). You succeed in charisma ? ok you have the bonus. You failed ? ok no bonus

4) the GM consider there is a visual (or other sense) effect, so people can sense magic activities. You succeed in charisma ? people can sense it, so they can see that you have the help of your god, it is so impressive that.. you get the bonus ! You failed in charisma ? ok, people can sense/hear/see you did a prayer, but no effect, so no bonus.. You fumble ? they sense it and they consider you are ridiculous because the god (knowing wich god or not is not important) refuse to help you so you have malus

[Grievous]

3 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Magic is a part of day-to-day life in Glorantha. People probably expect it to be used in all situations, it'd be odder for someone to not try and magically gain an advantage. Also keep in mind that Rune augments can be considered a form of magic too, so even if there's no overt spellcasting going on people will still be pulling on the cosmos to help them out.

Yeah, not using magic when you could be using magic, well that's just not really even trying, isn't it...

[Lordabdul]

8 hours ago, Roko Joko said:

I don't understand why you think they would have had to engage in the debate.

"We'll discuss the price of my horses after you're finished with your sorcery."

"I'll debate you all night long as soon as you're ready to address the question on its merits rather than rely on that magic to turn our heads.  So what's it going to be?"

"Get the hell out of my temple."

I don't understand why you would use a spell that gives you mechanical bonuses if you're not going to use those bonuses to roll the dice[1]. What these dice represent is then up to the GM and players... If you rolled extremely well, or if the situation calls for it, the dice could be interpreted in a way that signals that the debate/trade negotiation/courting/etc was short lived and was either dismissed in a second ("Get the hell out of my temple") or accepted in a second ("Yes of course I'll marry you!"). Regardless, the "social encounter" happened (if only by virtue of the dice having been rolled... but also, well, logically speaking).  If I bring back my analogy with combat, this would be the case of somebody casting multiple spells on themselves, walking up to their opponent, and being struck down in one critical roll hit to the head[2]... would you say the combat didn't happen?

[1] I could imagine a GM ruling that since the player cast Charisma, they win automatically, but I wouldn't personally do it like that.

[2] Or maybe not even that if it's an unimportant combat that you want to resolve in just one roll for expediency but then we're in unknown territory.

Edited August 14, 2020 by lordabdul

[Atgxtg]

20 hours ago, g33k said:

Yeah, I think this one is all too self-evident these days. 
 >:-[

Possibly. Or possibly not, depending on it it is effective.

20 hours ago, g33k said:

But this ain't the board for politics & current events.

Definitely not, thankfully. The only politics are current events I want to see on this board are those that take place in a fictional game world. Gaming is our refuge from the real world.