Human Race, Ethnicity, and Dragon Pass

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Storm Khan said:

Noting you are ignoring the "Lunar" part in the Lunar Tarsh.

Noting "idiot" statement.

Noting you are ignoring the Great Winter part of my statement.

I think I know more about human history and nature than you do, way more.

You're a moderator? Great job.

Please, shut down my profile before I do.

C yah

Ooh, sensitive!

Do you honestly think there’s a visible ethnic/“racial” difference between people born in the Kingdom of Lunar Tarsh and people from lands that were, in your grandparents’ lifetimes, part of the greater Kingdom of Tarsh?

And if so, why?

[M Helsdon]

21 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Do Lunars present a different ethnicity and/or race from the native inhabitants of Dragon Pass?

Not significantly, I suspect, if you mean appearance.

 There is no Lunar ethnicity, as 'We are all Us' and Lunars include people from all across the Pelorian basin and beyond. There may be more people who are blond or have light brown hair, and have light skin but such won't be unknown in Dragon Pass.

People in Dragon Pass are descended from northerners and southerners and will display a wide variety of hair, skin, and eye colors. The Orlanthi, if you go back far enough, are descended from a mixture of peoples. Even pale blue or green skin might be seen.

21 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Would Lunar Tarsh present as a sort of "Mestizo" ethnicity/race?

No.

21 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Do Praxians share the same race as Heortlanders? Esrolians? Grazelanders?

Praxians vary between tribes in appearance.

21 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Why not tackling racism in my game? I've always looked for trouble. 

As in our ancient world, culture, status, and at times, cult, would be more important than any construction such as race.

6 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

It is a question I needed to ask because I have a Lunar Tarsh NPC in Dragon Pass, 1624, travelling with Tarshites / Heortlanders / Praxians / Esrolians, and I need to gauge how much trouble she'll attract just by existing with the rebels.

Since it is what I want, I want her ethnicity to be something others have to detect with an Insite (Human) roll.

Most people display their cultic affiliations by tattoos. I suspect the Lunars don't do this as much, but may be wrong, but whilst a Heortlander/Praxian/Esrolian without tattoos may be uncommon, they won't be rare. So your NPC is unlikely to gain much attention unless they are displaying obvious Lunar symbols as jewellery.

5 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

This question revolves, for me, around a Lunar Tarsh NPC. The time is early 1624. Memory of the Great Winter is fresh in people's minds and Notchet is still under siege. If she is readily identifiable as Lunar, how much danger is she in of being lynched by a furious crowd in Esrolia?  

Esrolia at this time is divided into three major factions, one Lunar friendly. Is she armed and armored as a Lunar soldier? If not, I doubt anyone will do anything. After all, she could be a trader, or have some other innocent occupation.

Here are some pictures of Sartarites Jeff has shared. The green and blue skin here is probably dyed. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by M Helsdon

[g33k]

21 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Still, I have to ask: Do Lunars present a different ethnicity and/or race from the native inhabitants of Dragon Pass?

There are Oslir riverfolk (I think), as a nontrivial portion of the Tarshite population.  But also a lot of "ethnic" Orlanthi.
But also -- "Race" is an more-or-less artificial construct, as used these days; and frankly, it's mostly used by racists.

 

21 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Would Lunar Tarsh present as a sort of "Mestizo" ethnicity/race?

In the sense you seem to be asking... most of Dragon Pass is "Mestizo."  It is a cross-roads, cosmopolitan, and hence a bit of a "melting-pot" (albeit Orlanthi-dominant).

But "Lunar" Tarsh is Tarshite, which is heavily Orlanthi; it was, more or less, another Orlanthi nation alongside Sartar, before the Lunar conquest.
 

 

[JRE]

I agree with the idea that race applies only to clear species, such as Uz, mostali or aldryami. IMG genetics does not work, so if you have red hair, it is likely because you have some fire affinity, or a fiery temper, or your mother loved peaches while she was pregnant, or some of the dye of her Vingan days passed on to you. You are one of us, or you are a tolerated neighbour, or you are a stranger, and your appeareance is not the key factor. 

Someone mentioned the Romans. For them, the two signifying characteristics of status were language and clothes, to which we can add in Glorantha religious signs, which not only means runes but other religious signs, such as serpent tattoos or ritual scars. And reputation, which may reach much further than you think.

I also expect that magic ritual and elemental links change the appearance. A Kitori will be darker than his neighbours, some Orlanthi are blue without woad, some Lunars sport red skin. But even with red skin people will first listen to how you speak, see how you dress, and ask what you say of your ancestry. Even something like "I was hit by Lunar magic when they took back Alda Chur, and I have been this color since", will be accepted if the rest fits. Or "I was washed by my parents blood when they were murdered by X, I will be that color till I fulfill my revenge." That second one would fit better if you are known (reputation) as a great enemy of X.

[Ludo Bagman]

4 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

This question revolves, for me, around a Lunar Tarsh NPC. The time is early 1624.

To give a timeframe: The Lunar Empire needed some 100 years to pacify Lunar Tarsh, from 1490 to 1590. The last step started with the Battle of Grizzly Peak in 1582 (see family history) when the Lunar Army defeated the army of Old Tarsh and of the King and Queen of Dragon Pass. They conquered the remaining part of Tarsh except of Alda Chur and the Far Point region that joined Sartar after the besieging Lunar Army was driven away.

Tarshite refugees settled around Shaker's Temple and Wintertop, others went into Sartar and settled in the new founded Alone and its three tribes, and some even further south (two NPCs in Apple Lane are from Tarsh). So you could have three 40 years old siblings or three 20 years old cousins, one from Lunar Tarsh, one from Old Tarsh, and one from Alda-Chur, now in Sartar, blood related but from three different homelands.

Note also that not everyone in Lunar Tarsh follows the Lunar Way (the Guide says 60,000 while 300,000 are still Orlanthi). On the other hand, there are 35,000 Tarshites in Old Tarsh and 45,000 in the recently expanded Sartar (should be around one quarter of its population).

Also Notchet is the biggest city in the world, you may find people from every corner of the world here.

So the only problem may  be if the character is heavily Lunarized (like the cultural template for the PCs with Speak Tarshite of 20% and no knowledge of Tarshite customs), has big moon tattoos, can't even speak a word of Earth- or Stormspeech, etc.

[davecake]

18 hours ago, soltakss said:

The Agimori are Men-And-A-Half, very tall humans. Ostrich Riders are short and I think the same applies to Impala Riders. They are not Agimori in nature.

This is perhaps my most hated bit of terminology called confusion, because Agimori and Men-And-A-Half haven’t been synonyms in Glorantha for decades, but because many people ignore Pamaltela but love playing in Prax it persists, even perpetuated by Chaosium. 
Agimori are essentially humans who have a skin colour and other features resembling earth humans of African ancestry. It is the dominant ancestry in most of Pamaltela, though it has many variations, including in size, religion, culture etc like the other. It also includes varying degrees of mixing with other ancestries in various parts of Pamaltela - a lot of mixing with Veldang in Fonrit, probably with Wareran and others in Umathela, with Vithelan people in the north east, etc. And the fiwan, Pamaltelan Hsunchen, mostly seem to be Agimori appearing but there are again a lot of variation in size and otherwise. There are also at least two variant mythological origins for the Agimori people that represent variant ethnicities, but that are heavily mixed and in any case not usually distinguished by outsiders. 
 

One small, unusual, ethnic group of people who are Agimori settled in Prax from Pamaltela centuries ago, and have retained their unusual height and strength, and some other big variations (like different temperature tolerances and need for water). This is partly because they are almost exclusively endogamic for both cultural and magical reasons, and are now very infertile with others. But it’s also because they have continued the same set of magical preparations and taboos for all that time as well, and effectively have turned themselves into (or maintained themselves as?) a magically sustained separate species. They are radically distinct in many ways, and I think referring to them primarily as Agimori in outside of game use is not useful, because it spreads confusion. Being tall has nothing to do with being Agimori, there are pygmy Agimori (many in the North-East Pamaltelan jungles especially), and everything in between. But it’s a very distinct characteristic  of the Men-And-A-Half. 
The ethnic ancestors of the Men-And-A-Half that remained in Pamaltela seem mostly to have retained a lot less of their distinctness as a group, perhaps because they have been surrounded by many other Agimori ethnic groups. They are still generally tall, but not as much, and they are not as strict or unified in their lifestyle, including such things as drinking water. They are found in the city of Deshmador in Fonrit. It’s possible there may be other groups of traditionalist Men-And-A-Half remaining in Pamaltela, but I haven’t heard much definitive either way. 
 

Of course, the Man-And-A-Half may refer to themselves as Agimori, they are the only Agimori most of them ever encounter, references core parts of their mythology (they are descended from the Agi, and clearly they try to preserve their close ancestry to them, rather than drink water etc and blend with the rest of humanity), and serves to distinguish them from other Praxian tribes. 

But as players, there are a bunch of other Agimori that are not Men-And-A-Half that we are going to encounter, so it is going to get confusing. Western Hrestoli sorcerers from Pithdaros - many of whom have left their homeland and can be found elsewhere, including Sir Narib the sorcerer that is a close ally of Argrath and leads a unit of the Sartar Magical Union. Descendants of people who travelled the world in the God Learner era, as part of the Middle Sea Empire - and settled down in other parts of the world with the Closing centuries ago. Fonritian sailors are regular visitors to Nochet - and those inhabitants of Laskal and other areas that have been recruited as Wolf Pirates and follow Harrek. And that’s all without losing the basic RQ homelands - of course in Pamaltela it’s the default for most of humanity. 
 

But when we do it, it can get confusing. 

Tl;Dr - most Agimori are just normal humans with features resembling African ancestry. They are not notably tall or strong or fireproof, live many places but most often in Pamaltela, and are very diverse ethnically, culturally, etc, and freely reproduce with other human ancestries, and have. The Men-And-A-Half are an ethnic group in Prax that is Agimori, tall, strong, very heat tolerant, very culturally distinct and uniform, and interbreed with other groups very little both for cultural  and magical reasons. It’s really useful to keep this distinction in mind whenever we use the term Agimori. 

 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Tl;Dr - most Agimori are just normal humans with features resembling African ancestry.

Word from Jeff is that these people are Agi, not Agimori (which properly refers to the Men-and-a-half, the Zuama Valley dwellers and extinct peoples of Teshnos, Teleos and the Maslo according to Wyrms Footnotes #12 p30).  The God Learners IMO believed the Agimori were the original Agi but the Agi do not.  

 

[Storm Khan]

On 2/13/2022 at 3:14 PM, g33k said:

But also -- "Race" is an more-or-less artificial construct, as used these days; and frankly, it's mostly used by racists.

I watched George Floyd get suffocated in public. That was horrific. "Race" killed him. It is not artificial; you have to confront it, or, I guess hiding from it is an option.

Back to the ancients, the Romans sacrificed two Gauls, just locals, as their armies marched to face a coming invasion. If you don't think that was a message to the others in the community, you are foolish.

The word "barbarian" comes from the ancient Greeks mocking outsiders whose language, to them, sounded like "BAR BAR BAR . . . ," noise, that is.

If you don't think that the people of Dragon Pass, after suffering through the Great Winter, wouldn't be paying VERY close attention to anyone with a hint of Lunar allegiance, that is arrogant virtue signaling.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Storm Khan

[Storm Khan]

On 2/13/2022 at 3:11 PM, M Helsdon said:

Esrolia at this time is divided into three major factions, one Lunar friendly. Is she armed and armored as a Lunar soldier? If not, I doubt anyone will do anything. After all, she could be a trader, or have some other innocent occupation.

The Lunar, Red Earth Faction has been put down in a civil war by now.

Esrolia would still be tense; nothing like a round of brother-against-brother bloodletting to leave resentment. 

And then, add a Lunar occupying army fielding troops from, among other places, LUNAR TARSH, where this NPC is from.

Is this really your position, or is something else going on?

 

[Storm Khan]

On 2/13/2022 at 2:27 PM, Nick Brooke said:

Do you honestly think there’s a visible ethnic/“racial” difference between people born in the Kingdom of Lunar Tarsh and people from lands that were, in your grandparents’ lifetimes, part of the greater Kingdom of Tarsh?

Because in their parent's lifetime, the occupants of Dragon Pass have been subject to a campaign of Genocide - The Great Winter - by the Lunar Empire.

Tack on to that the fact that, at the moment of the game, Esrolia is at war with the Lunars, who no doubt will be fielding troops from LUNAR Tarsh.

Oh, wait, Esrolia has also just finished putting down the LUNAR Red Earth faction in a civil war.

You are ignorant if you think this wouldn't bring out the very worst human nature has to offer, include brutal interpretations of race and ethnicity.

Try picking up a book.

[Qizilbashwoman]

12 minutes ago, Storm Khan said:

The Lunar, Red Earth Faction has been put down in a civil war by now.

Esrolia would still be tense; nothing like a round of brother-against-brother bloodletting to leave resentment. 

And then, add a Lunar occupying army fielding troops from, among other places, LUNAR TARSH, where this NPC is from.

Is this really your position, or is something else going on?

Ethnic tensions are intense but there's no parallel to the racial paradigms of the modern West in Genertela any more than there were in ancient Rome. Romans were an aggressive, violent coloniser society that nonetheless including a large contigent of people who we would have recognised as Black, including most of the Roman nobility of Britain. There were Arab Emperors. All of these people were Roman, and that is how they were categorised ethnically.

 This conversation is getting extremely emotionally loaded. I recommend we take it down a notch as a community.

[svensson]

To the OP in answer to your question:

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Lunar culture is more appropriately Lunar Cultures... the religion and Empire have spread much farther than the Oslir watershed of Dara Happa where it was founded.
Still, the Dara Happans are the cultural basis of the Empire and they are where most of the stereotypes are derived from The Dara Happans are a different people than the Heortlings /Hendriki of Sartar, both physically and culturally. They are blonde-haired [black and auburn are also common], brown-eyed, and a bit darker in skin tone where Sartarites are paler of skin, often freckled, and darker of hair [black/brown/red] with blue or green eyes. Culturally, Dara Happans are more Persian /Roman /Byzantine to the Sartarites' Celtic /Saxon /Scandinavian, to use Terra analogies. HOWEVER, a great deal of crossover has happened in Time began. A blonde Sartarite or blue-eyed Dara Happan is nothing unusual at all and isn't even worthy of comment unless you're specifically looking to insult someone's parentage.

The biggest differences between the two groups is the pantheons they worship. Dara Happans are Imperially minded Solar /Yelm worshipers whose faith was overlaid with the Lunar religion... overlaid but not suppressed. Sartarites are Storm /Orlanth worshipers whose faith is actively oppressed by the Lunars as the Red Goddess is contesting Orlanth's place a Ruler of the Middle Air. And yet for all these differences, BOTH cultures hold Ernalda in high reverence as the Earth Mother. Even the most strident Lunar cultist recognizes and appreciates the work of Ernalda's cultists.

 

[Eff]

54 minutes ago, Storm Khan said:

Because in their parent's lifetime, the occupants of Dragon Pass have been subject to a campaign of Genocide - The Great Winter - by the Lunar Empire.

Tack on to that the fact that, at the moment of the game, Esrolia is at war with the Lunars, who no doubt will be fielding troops from LUNAR Tarsh.

Oh, wait, Esrolia has also just finished putting down the LUNAR Red Earth faction in a civil war.

You are ignorant if you think this wouldn't bring out the very worst human nature has to offer, include brutal interpretations of race and ethnicity.

Try picking up a book.

That is certainly one way to interpret it. I am fairly well convinced that it's not the only way to interpret it, and that it's not really the most natural way to interpret it.

Because, after all, in RQG, Sartar at the end of 1625 is not filled with mass graves where Seven Mothers initiates have had their bodies dumped, and we would thus be required to invent them and place them into the setting. And I don't really see any need to, in this fictional setting which frequently invokes an almost total difference in mindset and outlook from our own, make such an invention and bury them around the Royal Roads and out back of the Geo's.

Beyond that, I am not really sure that there is any benefit at all to doing this. If we conceive of Sartarites as colonized victims and survivors of the brutal Lunar oppression, it is really rather ahistorical to presume that they would engage in unlimited genocidal violence against the withdrawing colonizers, because that has happened very rarely. Doing so ultimately renders Sartarites and Lunars morally interchangeable avatars of brutality at best, which seems to be at odds with understanding the setting as being about the struggle against Lunar oppressors and tyrants.

Even if the idea is to treat Lunars as fundamentally Tolkien's orcs, it is rather odd to classify this as racialized violence, as it implies that there is a peaceful, "civilian" side of the Lunars, who nevertheless are brutalized and murdered. At that point, you'd have to come around to interpreting Lunars as part of a malevolent hivemind to make this kind of behavior seem anything in the neighborhood of heroic. Why do so?

[Ormi Phengaria]

1 hour ago, Storm Khan said:

Because in their parent's lifetime, the occupants of Dragon Pass have been subject to a campaign of Genocide - The Great Winter - by the Lunar Empire.

The Great Winter wasn't a genocide. They didn't even intend on its occurrence, and they suffered by it just as much as everyone else. There would be heated debate over the causes. By 1626, Lunar culture and belief have a foothold in both Sartar and Esrolia— these people are quite often your neighbors and extended family. Consequently, the only people really looking to spark open conflicts are the fanatics, the opportunists, the people with deeply personal grievances. Movers and shakers. And even then, they'll be targeting the actual pertinent enemy: the Imperial apparatus itself. Sometimes this spills over into targeting the Cult of the Seven Mothers, but the idea that lynch mobs are prowling about looking for the Wrong Kind of Theyalan doesn't seem very tenable to me.

[g33k]

13 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

I watched George Floyd get suffocated in public. That was horrific. "Race" killed him. It is not artificial; you have to confront it, or, I guess hiding from it is an option.

Back to the ancients, the Romans sacrificed two Gauls, just locals, as their armies marched to face a coming invasion. If you don't think that was a message to the others in the community, you are foolish.

The word "barbarian" comes from the ancient Greeks mocking outsiders whose language, to them, sounded like "BAR BAR BAR . . . ," noise, that is.

If you don't think that the people of Dragon Pass, after suffering through the Great Winter, wouldn't be paying VERY close attention to anyone with a hint of Lunar allegiance, that is arrogant virtue signaling.

No denying the Lunar/Sartar hostility, but bluntly:  most of "Tarsh" is mostly "Heortling;" this is very similar to Sartar.  Both also have substantive admixture of "other," enough-so that neither one will automatically presume "foreigner" based simply on looks.  The real-world intergrades from light-anglo to dark-anglo to non-anglo, and corresponding hair-colors / textures, aren't nearly as distinctive as they were in many ancient cultures:  Dragon Pass has been a crossroads since the Inhuman Occupation ended there; and the Lunars who occupied Orlanthi Tarsh brought VERY cosmopolitan ways (and settlers) with them.

Making it even less likely to matter are the occasional blueskin, greenskin, etc humans; both odd throwbacks to Dawn & Godtime peoples, and skin-dyes to convey Runic/Cultic/etc allegiances.

Finally:  remember that Glorantha has no such thing as "genetics," or "molecules."
There are no ACGT bases.
Mendel never existed in Glorantha; if he had, he wouldn't have found there what he found in the RW.

Glorantha is made of Runes.

I'd expect to see more phenotyping from the Runes than anything else.  Runes give Stat-bonuses, and honestly are more-likely to provide other markers than mere heritage does.  "Looks" in Glorantha may run in cultural groups, just as with the Real-World; but more because most folk tend to enculturate to the Runes & Cults they are raised with.

===

As noted up-front, however:  Lunars aren't going to be very popular!  The hostility is real.

Until the Dragonrise, most Sartarites didn't want to be in open defiance, and some native Sartarites were even active collaborators; but most were unwilling at best, many covertly defiant and a few openly rebellious (sometimes relying on a friendly populace to help them vanish; sometimes melting into the wilds; etc).  Post-Dragonrise, most Lunars have been hunted down (some Etyries merchants probaby travel the Royal Roads, because that's kind of central to who Sartar the Founder was, and the identity of the kingdom; but not much else).

But -- regarding your Lunar NPC -- in places where Lunars are unwelcome:

• When they open their mouth to speak, I expect there will be an issue of "accent."
• The presence of Moon-Rune tattoos and ornamentation (embroidery, jewelry, etc) will mark them.
• The LACK  of "good solid Orlanthi/Ernalda/Lightbringer" tat's and ornamentation will also mark them.

So, yeah; it's entirely possible this will be an issue, at least sometimes.  If she acts quiet/shy, keeps her mouth shut, wraps up in a nondescript cloak and pretends to sleep a lot... maybe not much trouble.

I presume you're including the NPC to be a "feature" of the game, not a boring generic... so obviously there will be problems!

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by g33k

[M Helsdon]

9 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

The Lunar, Red Earth Faction has been put down in a civil war by now.

Not outside the city where there is a besieging Lunar Army at that time.

9 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Esrolia would still be tense; nothing like a round of brother-against-brother bloodletting to leave resentment. 

And there are two other opposing factions in Esrolia. They aren't friends....

9 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

And then, add a Lunar occupying army fielding troops from, among other places, LUNAR TARSH, where this NPC is from.

Who will look pretty much like everyone else from Dragon Pass. There isn't a Tarshite ethnic identity. Tarshites look and sound like people from Old Tarsh, the Far Place, and are very closely related to the Sartarites, having only been divided from them during the Inhuman Occupation. Dragon Pass simply isn't that large and contains a significant variety of appearances.

Your NPC will probably have a Northern Theyalan accent, but so do people from Old Tarsh and the Far Place.

9 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

Is this really your position, or is something else going on?

Yes: you seem unfamiliar with the setting.

I refer you to the images of Sartarites shared earlier: Dragon Pass is a real mixing place of peoples and cultures.

As I noted in my first response: As in our ancient world, culture, status, and at times, cult, would be more important than any construction such as race. 

So if your Tarshite is wearing Lunar Heartland costume they will be recognised as a Lunar, but most Tarshites wear clothes the same or similar to Sartarites. Are they wearing red? More of a flag, but red is also the color of Orlanthi thanes. Are they carrying a Lunar sword? A kopis is widely used by cavalry; a Moonsword is a flag, but may have been taken as booty. Are they displaying Moon Runes as tattoos or jewelery? More of an issue. Are they calling loudly upon the Red Goddess? A problem.

Edited February 15, 2022 by M Helsdon

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

 This conversation is getting extremely emotionally loaded. I recommend we take it down a notch as a community.

thank you

[MOB]

On 2/13/2022 at 10:53 PM, soltakss said:

In my Glorantha, Sun Domers tend to look very similar, with fair or brown hair and blue, green or, occasionally, golden eyes. That is because they generally marry other Sun Domers. 

Outsiders joke that Sun Domers who don't look like this get the 'Total Celibacy' geas.

[Grievous]

8 hours ago, svensson said:

Still, the Dara Happans are the cultural basis of the Empire and they are where most of the stereotypes are derived from The Dara Happans are a different people than the Heortlings /Hendriki of Sartar, both physically and culturally. They are blonde-haired [black and auburn are also common], brown-eyed, and a bit darker in skin tone where Sartarites are paler of skin, often freckled, and darker of hair [black/brown/red] with blue or green eyes. Culturally, Dara Happans are more Persian /Roman /Byzantine to the Sartarites' Celtic /Saxon /Scandinavian, to use Terra analogies. HOWEVER, a great deal of crossover has happened in Time began. A blonde Sartarite or blue-eyed Dara Happan is nothing unusual at all and isn't even worthy of comment unless you're specifically looking to insult someone's parentage.

That's actually a little wrong according to the info from the Guide. The Dara Happans as Babylonian/Sumerian/Persian and Orlanthi as north European are old tropes that don't really hold. The Pelorians are somewhat lighter skinned with brown/blue eyes. The Orlanthi add in more hair and eye color variety and slightly darker skin basically - however with blondes rare and blue eyes apparently not present much at all.

I think the point re: OP is that while there is this blonde and lighter skin tone trend in the Pelorians, it's not a huge difference and not entirely unknown in Dragon Pass, so there isn't a readily apparent, blatantly obvious distinction between the two ethnic types so that isn't going to be the primary factor of directed prejudice. Cultic affiliation would be that (consider that many within your kin group would have joined the Seven Mothers cult as well). Language too, certainly (which is relevant to the question re: Tarshites). That said, I think there is room for discrimination on these lines (if you want to introduce that theme to your game) towards the blonde, blue eyed Pelorian types which do stand out and might be seen as representative of the Pelorian ruling class. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Grievous

[Nick Brooke]

I'm sorry Storm Khan has been having a bad day, and suggest stepping away from the lightning rod.

If his question had been, "Could a mob of Esrolians pick on someone from the Lunar Empire for looking different?," the answer would be "Sure, if you want."

The more obviously "Lunar" they are (e.g. wearing red, black and silver clothes and armour of imperial design, festooning themselves with Moon rune decorations, henna, tattoos and scarifications, wearing sophisticated hair and beard styles or shaved heads, carrying curved scimitars or sickles, preferring civilised food [maize flatbreads, potatoes, lark's tongues in aspic], praying to the Moon on Wilddays, speaking in a cultured New Pelorian accent, etc.), the more likely they are to become victims. Whether you choose to include violent racist mobs in your fantasy role-playing games is of course up to you (and YGWV), but you'll note that this isn't about racism: it's about identifying someone as Lunar.

But it wasn't. His question was, "Could a mob in Esrolia identify Lunar Tarshites because they look ethnically/racially different?" So that's the question a lot of us answered, and the answer is "No."

Now, if by "Lunar Tarshite" he meant "colonist from the Lunar Heartlands now living in Lunar Tarsh," then yes, those immigrants (who probably insist on being called "expats") probably do look rather different to the majority native Tarshite population: see my earlier post about "Pelorian" vs. "Orlanthi" appearances. Paler skin, more likely to be blond and blue-eyed, all that jazz. But native Lunar Tarshites look pretty much the same as Tarsh Exiles and folk from North Sartar, which is why mobs don't target people for "looking like Lunar Tarshites": there are much better cues you can pick up on. Some of them are obvious ("Dressing like a Lunar"), while others are things where even someone carefully disguised could slip up (e.g. wearing a pomade from the Heartlands; accent and word choice; religious behaviour in private).

"A hint of Lunar allegiance" is very different to "an easily-identified ethnicity"; Pelorian ancestry isn't Tarshite. And this thread started out by being about race and ethnicity before the OP's pivot. Which is probably why it was such a car-crash: we're talking past each other.

[Akhôrahil]

1: If you want to tackle the subject, one enormous issue is the presence of non-human races - how does this affect what you think of other human peoples? Quoting Terry Pratchett, "Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green." You will have to decide whether a troll makes a stranger seem more like a fellow human, or whether it just makes you more suspicious of any strangers. 

2: Obviously our people is the best in the world. Obviously everyone else is at best weird and dangerous. This is just the default tribalism and xenophobia, not itself racism. It has been noted that about half of all peoples' names for themselves in the real world mean "the people", "the real people", "the actual humans" or something like that. 

3: You hate the Lunars for being rapacious occupiers who killed your uncle and try to keep you from worshiping your gods. Looking Pelorian (even for those that do) probably comes far down your list of issues with them. Basically, most every people in Glorantha is going to have much more immediate issues to hate their neighbours over than any abstract racial stuff.

4: To Sartarites, Tarshites speaking and dressing funny is a far bigger deal than any minor differences in appearances.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

There's a lot in here to unpack. Before I enter this rabbit hole let's define a few terms:

Race: Categorising people into groups based on shared physical or social attributes that the categorised perceives as being different from those of other groups of the same species. Members of these groups may or may not be aware of their presumed membership. Example, the various Praxian Animal Rider Tribes, the Men-and-a-Half, Wasp Riders, Green Elves, Brown Elves, Snow Trolls, trollkin, Malkioni castes, etc.

Ethnic Group: is a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include common sets of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area. Example: Colymar Tribe, Sartarites, Lunar Tarshites, Tarsh Exiles, Lunars, Orlanthi, Dara Happan, Esrolian, etc. 

As you can see, these are really broad labels. In the Dragon Pass area cult, language, and tradition are the main things that define an ethnic group. Which isn't surprising - cult is the root of culture after all.

If a Sartarite talks to a Lunar Tarshite that person is probably going to lack the markers that identify one as a Sartarite - membership in a Lightbringer cult or its associates? Membership in one of the Sartarite tribes? If the conversation is in Tarshite (and not New Pelorian) language won't be a problem, but lack of cult or tribal ties will. 

But what are those markers? Well the Orlanthi tend to tattoo their group associations on their body. Hey, that woman has Colymar markings! And also their cult initiations - hey that person is marked with the Runes of Orlanth. That helps members of Orlanthi society navigate around different Orlanthi groups. 

What isn't a big deal? Skin color or hair color. The Orlanthi tend to be brownish skin with brown or reddish-brown hair, but there's plenty of diversity. 

Now wait, you might say, Bison Riders look differently from Impala Rider and from the Men-and-a-Half! Sure, but that is not the source of their group identity. The key elements of being a Bison Rider are (drumroll) - riding a bison. If you don't ride a bison, you can't be a bison rider. If you ride a bison, then we look to see if you are marked with Clan markings. Same thing with Wasp Riders, etc. 

So going back to the original question - would an Orlanthi recognize a Lunar based purely on physical characteristics? Nope. How about costuming? At the extremes, yes - but not in the middle. So yes, an Orlanthi might assume the person wearing the big red cloak and the breastplate featuring the Red Goddess is a Lunar, that is until they see the markings of Death and Truth and the nice iron sword that indicates that this is a Humakti (who often wear red cloaks because of blood and death) and the breastplate shows that she defeated a Seven Mothers Rune Lord in single combat. 

That's why Orlanthi culture has all sorts of social rituals to help sort out strangers into friends, neutrals, and enemies. Rather than attack on sight, the Orlanthi tend to ask strangers, "hey who are you? Did you kill any of my relatives?" and that kind of thing to figure out how to interact with them.

 

[Jeff]

In our world, categorising people into races was associated with the rise of vast transoceanic empires that ruled over many disparate peoples not associated with each other through language, religion, or tradition. If that exists in Glorantha, it would like be something you might have seen in the Middle Sea Empire. 

The ruling elite of the Middle Sea Empire were Hrestoli Malkioni. They likely tended to see the world through the lens of class - who are the talars, horals, zzaburi, and dronars of the world? This matters when bringing new people into the empire. Are those barbarians basically warriors or are they workers? Can our talars marry the sons and daughters of their rulers? Are those Dayzatar mystics essentially zzaburi? Places like Teshnos, Safelster, Umathela, Jolar, and Kralorela may have been to a greater or lesser degree affected by this. 

And thus it is not odd they divided peoples into the "races" of Wareran (which likely just really means, "we are familiar with them since at least the First Age"), Kralori (our eastern dominions), and Agimori and Veldang (our southern dominions). Agimori and Veldang were obviously different groups to their Jrusteli conquerers - to start with, the Veldang are blue. And worship very different gods. And everyone else (who get called the Agimori) agreed they are different.

[Jeff]

So going back to the OP:
 

1. Still, I have to ask: Do Lunars present a different ethnicity and/or race from the native inhabitants of Dragon Pass?

"Lunars" is a super broad category, even by these standards. Do you mean a Seven Mothers worshiper in Boldhome or are we talking about citizens of Furthest? I think in most cases they might be viewed as being different ethnic groups (remember - language, cult, and tradition drive that), but not different races.

2. Would Lunar Tarsh present as a sort of "Mestizo" ethnicity/race?

No. Lunar Tarsh is a specific ethnic group. They speak New Pelorian (language), follow the Lunar religion (cult), and have a long tradition of identifying themselves as a group.

3. Do Praxians share the same race as Heortlanders? Esrolians? Grazelanders?

Under the God Learner system? Yes. Under the categorisations of whatever Lhankor Mhy just wrote the most influential History of Our Times? Who knows. Maybe he divides people into the categories of Orlanthi, Lunar, Praxians, and Pure Horse People? 

[davecake]

On 2/14/2022 at 4:09 PM, metcalph said:

Word from Jeff is that these people are Agi, not Agimori (which properly refers to the Men-and-a-half, the Zuama Valley dwellers and extinct peoples of Teshnos, Teleos and the Maslo according to Wyrms Footnotes #12 p30).  The God Learners IMO believed the Agimori were the original Agi but the Agi do not.  

Not only does this not really make a lot of sense, I doubt Jeff is pursuing major retcons of the Guide by stealth here. Especially as this seems a burst of renaming guaranteed to ensure confusion for another several decades, managing to invalidate all existing nomenclature two different ways at once. 
I also think it’s really really weird to say that a map from so long ago that the continents are all different is cited as authoritative here, when we have much later sources that have a much detailed (and quite different) view. 

FWIW I go by Revealed Mythologies, the Agi were the immortal ancestors, the Agimori the mortal descendants once they drunk water and became mortal. Both the men and a half and the plains people fall into this category. It’s perfectly fine to say that the plains dwellers and the Men-And-A-Half have different versions of the same basic story, and that the God Learners got the wrong end of the stick.

But:

1) for one thing, this is mostly about common usage of terminology in both Gloranthan and non-Gloranthan texts. It doesn’t matter if there is a deep secret that the God Learners were somewhat wrong, if everyone uses their terminology. That’s how language works.

2) I’m really not convinced they God Learners are that wrong, as you can still actually meet the immortal ancestors (now called the Agitori) in Estere on the Southern edge of the Nargan, indicating that the water drinking that turned them from sterile immortals took place there (and not in Prax as the Men-And-A-Half claim). But it’s also clear that they are much closer to the Agitori than the Doraddi - and it seems pretty clear that Doraddi customs and myth are far more open to both intermarriage and exchanging magic with other groups, particularly both Artmali/Veldang, and fiwan, and so have over time become much more like common humanity.

There might even be one of those congratulatory Doraddi stories about it - “Oh yes, some people say you should have rules against marrying someone is not Agimori, and against learning their ways. We tried that already. Balumbasta said his sons should not bring him new people and new things that confused him. But then he could not make the sweet grass cakes and went hungry at the feasts, and all their huts were full of fleas because they did not know how to charm the hopping mice that eat them, and they were plagued by charnjibbers because they chased away the fire wrens that killed when they were small, and chased away Keraun because she was foreign, so she did not bring the rain that washes away the big charnjibbers at the end of the season. There are still some people who believe that we must be more like the Agitori, because they think Balumbasta is wiser than Pamalt, but most of them went north over the mountains to escape the fleas.”