Kuschile Horse Archery

[Jeff]

46 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Given that Sun County doesn't use horses as part of their make up, Kuschile Horse Archery will be much more common amongst the Praxian Yelmalions.

As I said above:

No idea on these. None of the Templars in Sun County have side arms. I alway imagine them kicking and using their shields to batter people.

Kuschile Horse Archery allows relatively poor horsemen to be good mounted archers. I expect it is much more common in Dragon Pass than in Prax (the Praxian tribes don't really need it because they are excellent riders to begin with).

[Qizilbashwoman]

11 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Kuschile Horse Archery allows relatively poor horsemen to be good mounted archers. I expect it is much more common in Dragon Pass than in Prax (the Praxian tribes don't really need it because they are excellent riders to begin with).

how does one pronounce kuschile, because my head reads it as "kuss CHIL leh" (u as in look)

Edited May 23, 2022 by Qizilbashwoman

[Richard S.]

48 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

how does one pronounce kuschile, because my head reads it as "kuss CHIL leh" (u as in look)

I read it something like "koo-SHEEL" or "koo-SHEEL-ae"

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

I can’t find a reference to kuschile horse archery in Runequst: Roleplaying in Gloratha could someone clarify where I can find it’s description and mechanics?

Edited May 23, 2022 by FlamingCatOfDeath
Clarification

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Kuschile Horse Archery allows relatively poor horsemen to be good mounted archers. I expect it is much more common in Dragon Pass than in Prax (the Praxian tribes don't really need it because they are excellent riders to begin with).

If I recall, Greg figured that Kuschile Horse Archery dates from when the Pelorian Kargzant was recognized as Yelmalio in the First Age. As Yelmalio is also the solar horse god, it meant that the cult members of the Peloria hills could serve as mounted archery without being particularly good horsemen.

[davecake]

On 5/24/2022 at 2:41 AM, Jeff said:

Kuschile Horse Archery allows relatively poor horsemen to be good mounted archers

RAW. it allows relatively poor horsemen to be mediocre mounted archers. If you fail your skill roll it confers no advantage, and most of the time you fail your skill roll. 
And mounted archers are not the same as light cavalry - which really does require you to be a good rider. 

[Jeff]

David - I recommend you reread the skill: 

Initiates also may train in the Kuschile Horse Archery skill, allowing them their normal archery chance from horseback regardless of their riding ability. This latter ability costs the same as Ride but is independent of that training. Learners of this skill must accept one random geas in exchange.

With Kuschile Horse Archery, you might be barely able to gallop (25% Ride) but can still shoot your bow at your regular 75 or 85%. That's a BIG deal, especially for an agricultural society like most Sun Dome temples.

[davecake]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

David - I recommend you reread the skill: 

Initiates also may train in the Kuschile Horse Archery skill, allowing them their normal archery chance from horseback regardless of their riding ability. This latter ability costs the same as Ride but is independent of that training. Learners of this skill must accept one random geas in exchange.

I recommend you reread the skill. Jeff. “Successful use of the skill allows…” 

Yes, Kuschile archery allows normal archery skill from horseback - IF you successfully use the Kuschile ability. Which admittedly starts reasonably high for a starting skill, at 25%+, but it doesn’t start at 100%. 
if it just let you use your archery skill at full value, it wouldn’t be a skill, just an ability. Which given it is magical (requires a geas) wouldn’t necessarily be bad. 
(Admittedly, I’m taking the most natural reading, which is the cumbersome roll for every shot, but if it’s roll every battle, it’s still not 100%, and requires something added to the skill description)

My comment about horse archers not being the same as Light Cavalry remains true. Light cav tactics like the Parthian shot/ wheel and turn require good riding, hell just staying on at a gallop without using your arms, or staying in something resembling a coherent formation. 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes, Kuschile archery allows normal archery skill from horseback - IF you successfully use the Kuschile ability. Which admittedly starts reasonably high for a starting skill, at 25%+, but it doesn’t start at 100%. 

And training up your Kuschile skill is a poor use of a PC's time and effort.  Instead of training your Kuschile archery up from 25%, why not train up your Ride skill?  It does start lower, but it's way more useful.  And you save a geas.  Yelmalio has a lot of bothersome geases, including "Complete Celibacy".  Avoiding them is a good thing.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Scotty]

On 5/23/2022 at 7:51 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

how does one pronounce kuschile

From the upcoming Prosopaedia: kuh-SHEEL

[Shiningbrow]

50 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And training up your Kuschile skill is a poor use of a PC's time and effort.  Instead of training your Kuschile archery up from 25%, why not train up your Ride skill?  It does start lower, but it's way more useful.  And you save a geas.  Yelmalio has a lot of bothersome geases, including "Complete Celibacy".  Avoiding them is a good thing.

Agreed!

And, mechanically, I haven't seen a clear explanation of how it works. Are you supposed to roll Kuschile for every attempt at an attack, and if you succeed, you then roll your normal attack? What happens if you fail or fumble?

Is it for a whole battle? Is it for each arrow or round or...???

And, as you wrote, it seems much more logical to just up your Ride and Bow... or, ride into range, stop, let off a few arrows. and then ride off again.

For a Geas, I'd expect an ability to fire at your normal Bow skill.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And training up your Kuschile skill is a poor use of a PC's time and effort.  Instead of training your Kuschile archery up from 25%, why not train up your Ride skill?  It does start lower, but it's way more useful.  And you save a geas.  Yelmalio has a lot of bothersome geases, including "Complete Celibacy".  Avoiding them is a good thing.

the only reason I see is, to train ride skill, you need to ride a horse, to train kuschile archery you need... a pommel horse (or maybe some friends playing the horse) So many things we can do with magic 🙂

 

not totally a joke, kuschile technic may offer some workaround, maybe  it allows to train yourself with a less quality horse (not trained, or I don't know) , or a part of the training is some movement without horse or things like that (so 1 horse = 3 "students" at the same times).

don't know if it is the right thread or the dumbest theory however.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the only reason I see is, to train ride skill, you need to ride a horse, to train kuschile archery you need... a pommel horse (or maybe some friends playing the horse) So many things we can do with magic 🙂

 

not totally a joke, kuschile technic may offer some workaround, maybe  it allows to train yourself with a less quality horse (not trained, or I don't know) , or a part of the training is some movement without horse or things like that (so 1 horse = 3 "students" at the same times).

don't know if it is the right thread or the dumbest theory however.

I think you're just horsing around....

 

 

(does that pun translate??)

[Shiningbrow]

Does Kuschile work with other mounts?

If not, going to be a bit of a problem in most of Prax then...

[PhilHibbs]

30 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Does Kuschile work with other mounts?

If not, going to be a bit of a problem in most of Prax then...

The writeups all say "horseback". I'm sure it doesn't stop working when you paint stripes on your horse though.

[Akhôrahil]

I think it’s questionable whether being good at shooting but bad at actually riding is a good recipe for missile cavalry, tbh. Isn’t it both easier and more effective to just learn how ride?

(Not that isn’t a funny thought to imagine Yelmalio cavalry fumbling their horses…)

Edited May 25, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

At first glance it does seem particularly pointless. Why raise your Kuschile Archery skill, instead of raising your Ride skill?

However, it gives you a chance of improving your chance. Even if you only get the "free" 25% chance, then that's an immediate benefit.

Lets say you have 25% Ride and 50% Bow. A 25% KA skill immediately raises your Bow chance, on average, to 31.25% chance. You have a one-in-four chance of using your full 50% skill and a three-in-four chance of being limited by your 25% ride.

Now if by experience you raise your KA to 30%, your Ride to 30%, and your Bow to 55%. You now have, on average, a chance to hit of 37.5%. So just by experience, your chance has gone up by 6.25% instead of 5%!

And if you then only manage to raise one skill, the KA, by 5% due to experience, your chance goes up to 38.75%. So just having that skill sitting there, increasing through experience, is better for your chance to hit than just Ride and Bow skill. It's an additional skill increase roll, which is free, so it increases your chance of increasing your chance.

Is it worth it? From a game system point of view I still don't think so. It's an additional complexity, and an additional die roll to make. It's a bit like an augment really, but one that is unlimited in its utility and is in addition to augments.

Edited May 25, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[icebrand]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And training up your Kuschile skill is a poor use of a PC's time and effort.  Instead of training your Kuschile archery up from 25%, why not train up your Ride skill?  It does start lower, but it's way more useful.  And you save a geas.  Yelmalio has a lot of bothersome geases, including "Complete Celibacy".  Avoiding them is a good thing.

I use it as a gift & geas. You get it, you get a geas, you are no longer limited by your ride skill, thats it!

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Agreed!

And, mechanically, I haven't seen a clear explanation of how it works. Are you supposed to roll Kuschile for every attempt at an attack, and if you succeed, you then roll your normal attack? What happens if you fail or fumble?

Is it for a whole battle? Is it for each arrow or round or...???

And, as you wrote, it seems much more logical to just up your Ride and Bow... or, ride into range, stop, let off a few arrows. and then ride off again.

For a Geas, I'd expect an ability to fire at your normal Bow skill.

Mechanically, Kuschile is awesome for people with high (120%+) bow skill that didnt develop ride all along. Even if they check ride every single time, they are checking bow too you know? then kuschile can be easily brought to 95% i guess? I hate how it works because it adds an extra roll, so i made it a gift and you just shoot ignoring your ride skill.

10 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

At first glance it does seem particularly pointless. Why raise your Kuschile Archery skill, instead of raising your Ride skill?

However, it gives you a chance of improving your chance. Even if you only get the "free" 25% chance, then that's an immediate benefit.

Lets say you have 25% Ride and 50% Bow. A 25% KA skill immediately raises your Bow chance, on average, to 31.25% chance. You have a one-in-four chance of using your full 50% skill and a three-in-four chance of being limited by your 25% ride.

Now if by experience you raise your KA to 30%, your Ride to 30%, and your Bow to 55%. You now have, on average, a chance to hit of 37.5%.

And if you then only manage to raise one skill, the KA, by 5% due to experience, your chance goes up to 38.75%. So just having that skill sitting there, increasing through experience, is better for your chance to hit than just Ride and Bow skill. It's an additional skill increase roll, which is free, so it increases your chance of increasing your chance.

Is it worth it? From a game system point of view I still don't think so. It's an additional complexity, and an additional die roll to make. It's a bit like an augment really, but one that is unlimited in its utility and is in addition to augments.

YES.

Edited May 25, 2022 by icebrand

[Godlearner]

My problem with this skill is that in real life, it was developed and practiced by mounted nomads and not farmers. It is just backwards as described in RQ.

[icebrand]

2 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

My problem with this skill is that in real life, it was developed and practiced by mounted nomads and not farmers. It is just backwards as described in RQ.

If you want that, just let them shoot arrows with kuschile skill instead of bow. Kuschile isnt limited by ride, but cant be used on foot (or most likely, can be used at 1/2%).

 

[PhilHibbs]

8 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

My problem with this skill is that in real life, it was developed and practiced by mounted nomads and not farmers. It is just backwards as described in RQ.

Do we know that Kuschile Archery is based on a real life thing? Surely mounted nomad archers will just have a high Ride skill, no need for a special mitigating skill.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Do we know that Kuschile Archery is based on a real life thing? Surely mounted nomad archers will just have a high Ride skill, no need for a special mitigating skill.

I'm with Phil, I don't think this is specifically anything other than "Eurasian mounted archers were infamous"

[Eff]

I think that broadly the aim of Kuschile Archery, along with the syntagmatic phalanx, is that the ordinary farmers can suddenly shift into being stalwart soldiers and then go back to the farm, and one of the secrets of this is a magic for being an effective part-time horse archer. 

[M Helsdon]

Horse archery goes back a long way, and from at least two distinct traditions in Eurasia. 

The nomads of the steppes and the settled peoples. For example, there's an argument that Mesopotamian horse archery evolved from chariot archery, so that, for example, on Assyrian reliefs, the chariot driver and archer were replaced by horseman and archer, still operating as a pair, as shown in this illustration by Angus McBride - later both would have been equipped with bows. These Assyrians are farmers, or from farming stock.

There are suggestions that steppe horse archery may have evolved in a similar way, long before the horse (and chariot) were brought into the Near East - it's one of those things we will never know.

Whatever the tradition, the horse archer, unless heavily armored, fought as light cavalry.

I can see Yelmalion horse archery in Saird, following a similar path as the Meopotamian. This picture might be taken as showing a Yelmalion using his Kuschile archery skill.

Edited May 25, 2022 by M Helsdon

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Do we know that Kuschile Archery is based on a real life thing? Surely mounted nomad archers will just have a high Ride skill, no need for a special mitigating skill.

Even if this is the case, it seems to me the only way to learn this type of thing is to actually shoot while mounted.