Kuschile Horse Archery

[JRE]

So, who guards the camp at night? Who stays with the tents when the enemy breaks through the mounted screen? Who guards the temple tent, the priestesses in a day long ceremony, the birthing tent, the shamans tents? What happens when you have less riding mounts than people in your clan, as most animals are not trained nor equipped to be ridden? Who protects the captured beasts pen? 

I cannot accept there is no foot combat at all. At night, in most cases, you have to be on foot as none of the Praxian beasts has good night vision, except the morokanth, and they are not beasts. 

Going to the mongols as our best known full nomads, there is a significant number of non-riders, defined as those without a mount of their own, not that they do not know how to ride, including many of the women, as training an animal for riding is long, and not all animals are good for it. They also have a specific position, camp guard, who could ride, but did their job on foot, and generally answered to the leader of the camp, rather than the khan directly. In Prax I expect that would be an Eirithan, not a Waha khan. That would make Yelmalio the go to cult for warriors that answer directly to women rather than Waha. 

If the Praxians had a very formalized approach to raiding, I could expect certain targets would not be allowed, so no need to protect pregnant women, children, temples, shamans bodies, relics, foals... But we know they are as ruthless as their land. So someone has to fill that protector role, and I believe Yelmalio fits quite well in it.

But this is my own justification for what role Yelmalio fills, and what the required and preferred skills mean in Prax, and his magic and his gifts. You can reject this option, but then, what role do the Yelmalions fill, according to you, and do you change their skills, their gifts, their geas to fit into Prax? Because Prax is one of the starting PC cultures, so it should be clear to a new Praxian PC what is his role, what purpose serves that 90% Spear he needs to be a Light Son, or why Ride is not a cult skill.

Kuschile Archery is not in the rulebook, so that is a problem for when Gods of Glorantha is published.

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, Godlearner said:

From a gaming point of view, it's a pointless skill.

As written, it's not a skill for PCs.  If you think that it should be, that's fine and future rules might even support you.  But as Cults of Prax memorably said "Humakt builds warriors – the Sun Dome trains soldiers" so I can see the point in its pointlessness.  

[Shiningbrow]

I wouldn't call it "pointless" - just "niche". Just as scouts are required in an army, so too are a few capable horse archers - or at least, archers who get on a horse to flank or harry. Perhaps in an army that dominates with pike formations, you'd only need a handful, to a dozen or score - not really all that many. And so, it's made available to that very limited bunch.

Sure, unlikely to be a PC thing - but then the question is - are the only cults (and sub-cults, skills, abilities, Rune Spells) that are published always designed for the PCs in mind?

[French Desperate WindChild]

24 minutes ago, JRE said:

But this is my own justification for what role Yelmalio fills, and what the required and preferred skills mean in Prax, and his magic and his gifts. You can reject this option, but then, what role do the Yelmalions fill, according to you, and do you change their skills, their gifts, their geas to fit into Prax? Because Prax is one of the starting PC cultures, so it should be clear to a new Praxian PC what is his role, what purpose serves that 90% Spear he needs to be a Light Son, or why Ride is not a cult skill.

is it really white and black ?

for me it is more grey :

1) yelmalio, as you said, could be the cult for the night guards, or even the day guards (or the guards could be choosen because their cult abilities)

2) yelmalian nomads could do their duty on their mount. ok, you may have "static" guards near some tents, but the herd is important too, very very important, and you need night guards to protect it too, so why not on mount ?

3) yelmalian nomads could use spear on their mount

 

that's not because one useful skill in a culture (aka ride your tribe beast) is not in a cult that is an issue, that's just your cult doesn't help you, but as your culture does it, it is the same in fact (aka one roll every season if you wish)

and maybe, this so important link between horse and yelmalio may explain why some nomads "accept" horse riders even when their tribes dislike them

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Using Cults of Prax, Appendix C, you'll see that Yelmalio and Waha membership is nearly identical. The more up to date figures differ slightly. Yelmalio is also one of the inter-tribal cults.

Yeah, that's always been pretty weird, given that:

• the Waha writeup in the same book implies essentially all male nomads are members
•  the Yelmalio writeup makes no concession to nomadic members. It is all about settled farmers who organise their own defense.  So for initiate membership, you must normally have been born within temple-owned lands.

I guess the synthesis is something like Waha, by default, provides the overt social structure and hierarchy of the clan; who is Khan, who leads the raid, who marries the Eiritha priestess's daughter (who owns the most herd animals). There have always been hierarchies  parallel to this, in the form of magical secret societies. Anyone with ambition for advancement within the tribe joins one or more of these, to learn the secret magic that will give them an edge on the next raid, or when choosing the new Khan. Magic gained in this way is doubly useful for being rare; you are not just someone who can see in the dark, you are the _only person in the fight_ who can see in the dark.

Yelmalio has long been one of those entities underlying some of those magical societies. In those tribes with 1-2% membership figures, he still is. As Jeff suggested in another thread, if you are a male nomad with a Fire soul, his way is the path you will find easiest to walk.

Perhaps it was the founding of New Pavis, and in particular the opening of the Sun Dome temple there, that changed things for the impalas nearby. If you are on the out with the current clan hierarchy,no need to go on some dangerous shamanic vision quest ordeal. Instead, you just show up at the Yelmalio temple and sign on as a mercenary. Two short years of guarding caravans or whatever, and you get full access to the good stuff. A vrok hawk familiar, light and vision magic, and you are generally going to be the ambusher, rarely the ambushed. Which to an impala rider is pretty much the entirety of the fight.

Of course, this new way of life changes you. You become used to following orders, and showing up at the temple every Fireday for drill and worship. When the current Khan proposes migrating away from grazing lands that have easy access to the temple, you are not pleased. And you find your view has a lot of supporters.

Maybe it's time for a new Khan?

 

 

 

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

Kuschile Archery is not in the rulebook, so that is a problem for when Gods of Glorantha is published.

and that is why it should be fixed before it is.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

10 hours ago, JRE said:

Who stays with the tents when the enemy breaks through the mounted screen?

This may be a good use for Yelmalians.  And it would be a truly great character background - Guarded the camp and

• happy ending version: drove off the enemy, gained Great Glory
• dark ending:  watched them slaughter the queen and princes, gain Hatred ThoseGuys

However, "camp guard" hardly strikes me as a worthy goal for a player character.  Bodyguard for somebody very important, o.k.  Camp guard, no.

[svensson]

OK, so question for those who are NOT Sky cultists...

How does Mounted Archery work for mounted nomads [Praxians, etc.]? Are they assumed to have trained in mounted archery [Kushile or another name], or are they bound by the base rules?

[PhilHibbs]

8 minutes ago, svensson said:

OK, so question for those who are NOT Sky cultists...

How does Mounted Archery work for mounted nomads [Praxians, etc.]? Are they assumed to have trained in mounted archery [Kushile or another name], or are they bound by the base rules?

So long as you have a high Ride skill, the base rules are fine. The challenge is that weapon skills will tend to rise a little more quickly than agility, as stats are more generous to the manipulation category.

[svensson]

12 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

So long as you have a high Ride skill, the base rules are fine. The challenge is that weapon skills will tend to rise a little more quickly than agility, as stats are more generous to the manipulation category.

Well, you'd be a damned poor nomad if you didn't have a high Ride skill... lol!

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

So long as you have a high Ride skill, the base rules are fine. The challenge is that weapon skills will tend to rise a little more quickly than agility, as stats are more generous to the manipulation category.

A ironic aspect of this is that a high Water Rune is useful for the near-desert dwellings Praxians, as that is the element that can augment Agility skills such as Ride.

[JRE]

9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

However, "camp guard" hardly strikes me as a worthy goal for a player character.  Bodyguard for somebody very important, o.k.  Camp guard, no.

That is where you are coming from, not where you are going to, Every hero needs to start somewhere,

Thinking a bit more about Yelmalio's role in the nomad tribes, I thought of some further interconnected roles, and it even plays well with Kuschile Archery, to keep moderately on topic.

The starting point for me is that Yelmalio is the primary male god for the clan members that are not in Waha but are still allowed to carry weapons and fight.

So it would be the main cult for adoptees, slave offspring and all those that for some reason do not fit in Waha. Considering slave taking and mixing, a big Impala or a small Bison need some place that will take them, and a role that does not require mainly riding. I also expect that if the Impalas adopt a Bison, Bison Waha is different enough from Impala Waha that he will not be allowed to join, but he can still be more useful than a simple slave.

Then, what happens when a clan is in dire straits, pushed to the wastes, and just lost three quarters of their animals? Can you call yourself a Waha worshipper without a mount? You may, for a short while, but if not, you join the god of stubborn survival, of taking it in the chin and asking for more (which fits also with the adoptees and slave offspring above).

So I would expect that Yelmalio may be more prevalent in those clans in trouble, while rich clans will have plenty of slaves and mounts, and few Yelmalions, except possibly to watch and keep the slaves in check, which traditionally is also a role for ex-slaves and slave offspring.

Another thing in common with the camp guards is that all of these examples are male nomads that do not have a mount of their own, so it is likely their Ride will not be as good as it should. there is, specially in projectile users such as Impala and Sables, the usefulness of Kuschile Archery.

 

[davecake]

On 6/2/2022 at 6:40 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Just as scouts are required in an army, so too are a few capable horse archers - or at least, archers who get on a horse to flank or harry.

you are going to want anyone who is flanking or harrying in a battle to know how to ride well. Especially against enemies who do generally ride well. Kuschile archery turns infantry archers into quite mediocre light cavalry - which is potentially useful when dealing with infantry enemies, but really not great in a situation like Prax, where good cavalry is ubiquitous, and a group of poor riders is going to get chased down by much better riders. 

[Joerg]

One thing I always wonder about is why the Kuschile archery is named after a Pentan or early Hyaloring. How far back does this skill go? Was Kuschile the first horse rider who used a bow from horseback? And if so, was there any bow-armed avilry before him?

 

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 5/25/2022 at 6:36 PM, Lordabdul said:

you could consider that a third of your army is shooting arrows with no penalty from their mediocre Ride skill. That suddenly doesn't sound too bad.

No, it sounds bloody awful!
It means that 2/3 might well have a penalty, so, many will be ineffective. I want all of my army to be effective as they can be. Battle is harsh and chaotic enough without parts of it being useless. 

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 5/26/2022 at 5:29 PM, radmonger said:

It's not just Kuschile Archery; as far as I can see all the other RQ2 legacy cult-specific skills are a bit of a rules wart that don't really fit with the RQ:G model of a short list of universal skills. 

What would probably work better is to treat them as _cult secrets_, using the template:

If you know _a secret_, normally taught at _cult rank_,  then you may substiutute _this_ for _that skill_ under _these circumstances_.

So:

- if you know the secret of Kushcile Archery, you may substitute Yelmalio Cult Lore for Riding when using a bow from horseback.

- if you know the secret of the Peaceful Cut, then you may substitute Waha Cult Lore for Bargain when dealing with spirits killed under the terms of the Survival Covenant.

- if you know the secret of Sense Chaos, then you may use the passion Hate Chaos to replace Scan or Search when Chaos is suspected.

- if you know the secret of Dormal's Opening, then you may use the skill Shiphandling on open waters.

I think that scales a lot better to having that kind of as unique and useful heroquest rewards, wihtout ending up with a character sheet with a dozen such skills all at 15 to 25%...

 

 

Have you seen the levels [lore] starts at or Sense Chaos?

No thanks.

[Akhôrahil]

On 6/5/2022 at 11:58 AM, Joerg said:

One thing I always wonder about is why the Kuschile archery is named after a Pentan or early Hyaloring. How far back does this skill go? Was Kuschile the first horse rider who used a bow from horseback?

Prospedia answer: "This ancient hero was a grandson of Hyalor Horsebreaker. He was the first to shoot arrows from a galloping horse."

[metcalph]

18 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

No, it sounds bloody awful!
It means that 2/3 might well have a penalty, so, many will be ineffective. I want all of my army to be effective as they can be. Battle is harsh and chaotic enough without parts of it being useless. 

You may want your army as effective as they can be.  Quite a few real world armies have been staffed by officers who chose to field increasingly poor quality troops for a variety of sad and depressing reasons.  If you are training horse archers and putting time and money in the training then they won't be trained in Kuschile Horse Archery.  If you prefer to steal the money for which you have been given for those troops or you need new horse archers right now because Sheng just slaughtered your old ones, then Kuschile Horse Archery is just the thing for you!

 

 

 

[g33k]

On 6/2/2022 at 2:50 PM, PhilHibbs said:

... The challenge is that weapon skills will tend to rise a little more quickly than agility, as stats are more generous to the manipulation category.

I will argue that the Nomads will *always* be checking their Ride skill, every season.

They will never *not* have a tick/check, when it's time check for skill-advancement.  Even if they're injured, they will be riding, and gaining skill-checks for "how to ride in this unusual circumstance."

They won't always have an archery-check.  Between hunting & combat, they often will... but not "always."

[Darius West]

On 5/24/2022 at 5:44 AM, Richard S. said:

I read it something like "koo-SHEEL" or "koo-SHEEL-ae"

I have always pronounced it Coosh-isle.

[Akhôrahil]

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

i am saddened it is not the Slavic Щ shch derived from earlier Ⱋ sht (koosh-CHEEL) I thought it was

[MOB]

On 5/25/2022 at 5:58 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And training up your Kuschile skill is a poor use of a PC's time and effort.  Instead of training your Kuschile archery up from 25%, why not train up your Ride skill? 

Because there's not enough horses to go round. 

On 5/26/2022 at 3:00 AM, Godlearner said:

Even if this is the case, it seems to me the only way to learn this type of thing is to actually shoot while mounted. 

That's the point. Praise Yelmalio, you don't actually need a live horse to learn and practice your Kuschile Archery skill. 

[MOB]

On 5/26/2022 at 8:58 PM, PhilHibbs said:

I don't know when the "Solitude of Testing" was introduced as a thing, that left the RoC Yelmalions bereft of horses. The classic Borderlands pack seems to imply that horses are common in the RoC area, but says they are taboo on the Plains of Prax.

The Lunar enforced peace brought horses back to the River of Cradles region. RQ3's Sun County describes how one militia company, styling themselves as 'Rogar's Riders', have recently taken to riding horses, but this is seen as dangerously radical. 

On 5/26/2022 at 9:52 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

so what we know about Kuschile Archery in Prax is that... it doesn't happen. The Sun Domers there don't even have horses.

When Pavis fell in 1200 ST and civilisation as-they-knew-it thus ended on the River of Cradles, the Sun Domers' struggle to survive and maintain their identity hinged on convincing the hostile Praxian tribes surrounding them that they, the People of the Sun, deserved to be seen as better than mere Oasis Folk, that the nomads regarded as little more than chattels.

How did they accomplish this? Palishon was Light Captain, and then later Count when the 'Solitude of Testing' began. He solemnly told his people, "Things are going to have to change, in order to stay the same." Like their kin back in Sartar, rigorous military training provided a line of defense. But giving up their cherished horses was a key to the Sun Domer's survival. Adapting to their fate on foot at least removed the automatic and unthinking antipathy of all the Waha tribes.

The Sun Domers also broke off their long-standing alliance with the Pure Horse Tribe at the Battle of Alavan Argay in 1250, which doubtless contributed the Pol Joni's defeat and banishment from Prax. Whether this was adroit statecraft or perfidious betrayal depends on your point of view. But it is said the Sun Domers' geas "Never let a horse suffer needlessly" originates from this time.

More on this here.

On 5/26/2022 at 9:52 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

so what we know about Kuschile Archery in Prax is that... it doesn't happen. The Sun Domers there don't even have horses.

The horse (and antecedents/relations, like the unicorns of Yelorna) are part of the specific practices of Solar faith and I'd say you had to be on a Horse (with capital letter, to indicate its mystic identity).

Throughout the Solitude of Testing Kuschile Archery was still assiduously practiced, because one day surely the Sun Dome would return to glory. You don't actually need a horse to improve your Kuschile Archery Skill.

[MOB]

46 minutes ago, MOB said:

But it is said the Sun Domers' geas "Never let a horse suffer needlessly"

BTW, in my GMing and player character experience, "needlessly" does lot of heavy lifting here.