Rune Lords

[g33k]

On 10/3/2022 at 9:05 AM, Jose said:

Thanks for the info, I didn't know if the cult would change, kimantori and all that, in Cults  book again. No rune lords then. OK for me. 

Thanks. 

Given Argan Argar's myths & history, I think Rune Lords fit very well indeed (also -- note that 1H Spear is a Cult Skill, so the "martial-ness" of the Cult is pretty key).  YGMV after all !

They'd be slightly different than many cults' IMO; rather than pursuing the "adventurer/champion" trope that most other cults' Rune Lords do, I think AA's would have a core function of raising/training Value-Trollkin to be spearmen-mercenaries.

Likely providing them free to the Cult (as guards for temples & caravans) as part of their service to the cult, but also hiring-out and selling mercenary bands, because AA is also a "merchant" so that's fulfilling the mercantile thing.

Also, AA is about "interfacing" with the peoples' of the Surface world, and "marauding hordes of Trollkin" is... well... just another form of "interface."

[Jeff]

AA is all about communication with the Night, rather than going about fighting the foes of Darkness.  His priests are not particularly martial - they have mass of spear-using trollkin, but those are expendable masses - the dark trolls don't fight with the trollkin! Zorak Zoran and the Karrg Sons are the war gods for the trolls. As a result, AA has Rune priests, not Rune Lords.

[Godlearner]

23 minutes ago, Jeff said:

AA is all about communication with the Night, rather than going about fighting the foes of Darkness.  His priests are not particularly martial - they have mass of spear-using trollkin, but those are expendable masses - the dark trolls don't fight with the trollkin! Zorak Zoran and the Karrg Sons are the war gods for the trolls. As a result, AA has Rune priests, not Rune Lords.

AA go where Night's rule is not absolute and danger abounds. Trollkin need to be trained and organized and even though AA's primary role is not of a fighter, his leadership role speaks to the need of military aspects. I would say there is a good case there for some Rune Lords. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

AA go where Night's rule is not absolute and danger abounds. Trollkin need to be trained and organized and even though AA's primary role is not of a fighter, his leadership role speaks to the need of military aspects. I would say there is a good case there for some Rune Lords. 

so as His runes and roles suggest, AA is about communication and community and about the Dark (specifically Trolls and kin). This encompasses his role as trader, interpreter, and as organiser of trollkin communities. Since the last group straddle the divide between Dark and non-Dark better than other Trollfolk, it's not a surprise that He is interested in them.

Part of organising any community is self-defense, so while he's not a direct war leader he provides Trollkin with martial prowess. An individual Rune Lord might be interested in this in particular.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Qizilbashwoman

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

AA go where Night's rule is not absolute and danger abounds. Trollkin need to be trained and organized and even though AA's primary role is not of a fighter, his leadership role speaks to the need of military aspects. I would say there is a good case there for some Rune Lords. 

You are welcome to add Rune Lords to your Glorantha. But at this time, the AA cult does not have Rune Lords. 

[Jose]

28 minutes ago, Jeff said:

You are welcome to add Rune Lords to your Glorantha. But at this time, the AA cult does not have Rune Lords. 

We can always heroquest to get that sort of connection with our God without being a runelord. Am I mistaken Jeff? 

[PhilHibbs]

I don't get why only "combat" cults give 1D10 Divine Intervention to their elite followers.

[David Scott]

28 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't get why only "combat" cults give 1D10 Divine Intervention to their elite followers.

Quote

The duality of the statuses of Rune Lord and Rune Priest lies in their focuses. The Rune Lord is more concerned with exploring the physical nature of the world and excels in domination within the Middle World. The Rune Priest concentrates upon the spiritual nature of the world, preferring to act upon the subtle natures of the magical plane.

RQG, Rune Lords, page 278 

Their role is to act on the physical world. Rune priests don't have that role (I realise that its not always as clear as that).

Combat is only one categorisation, Looking at the Cults with Rune Lords:

• Babeester Gor - sacred earth guardians (defence)
• Foundchild - Hunter
• Humakt - Warrior
• Odayla  - Hunter
• Orlanth  - Adventurer (has Rune Priests too)
• Seven Mothers - Warrior (has Rune Priests too)
• Storm Bull - anti-chaos Warrior
• Waha - Culture Hero (has Rune Priests too)
• Yelm - Warrior  (has Rune Priests too)
• Yelmalio - Warrior (has Rune Priests too)
• Yinkin - Hunter

I'd suggest that only the cults that have Rune priests too have the resources to support warriors with Babeester Gor's resources supplied by the Earth cults. Storm Bull and Humakt are specialists in their field's and so that's their primary role.

Edited November 2, 2022 by David Scott

[Brian Duguid]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't get why only "combat" cults give 1D10 Divine Intervention to their elite followers.

I don't get why only cults with a strong martial (or hunting) element get Rune Lords full stop. It just seems odd to me that martial activities are privileged in this way, over, say Gustbran. I would appreciate hearing a clearer rationale for that.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Their role is to act on the physical world. Rune priests don't have that role (I realise that its not always as clear as that).

Issaries and Argan Argar do, they are both very much going out there into the world and interacting with dangerous strangers. That's what it maybe should be in my mind, sedentary cults (household, farming, community oriented) don't need Rune Lords but cults whose core purpose involves going away from the safety of a temple do.

[Jeff]

34 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

I don't get why only cults with a strong martial (or hunting) element get Rune Lords full stop. It just seems odd to me that martial activities are privileged in this way, over, say Gustbran. I would appreciate hearing a clearer rationale for that.

In the end it is because a Rune Lord is a martial figure, a result of both the demands of the god and the cult's function in society. They are warrior-magicians in a way that priests are not. Gustbran has only priests, Humakt has only martial warrior-magicians.

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Issaries and Argan Argar do, they are both very much going out there into the world and interacting with dangerous strangers. That's what it maybe should be in my mind, sedentary cults (household, farming, community oriented) don't need Rune Lords but cults whose core purpose involves going away from the safety of a temple do.

Issaries and Argan Argar do not. Or more precisely, the Goldentongue Priest is the closest Issaries gets.

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

Their role is to act on the physical world. Rune priests don't have that role (I realise that its not always as clear as that).

And then there is Uleria, or are you guys taking away the D10 from her priests? I mean she her role is to act on the physical world 😈

[Rodney Dangerduck]

I think one issue is that Rune Priest DI went from "interesting" in RQ2 (with the explicit D.I. rune spell) to basically non-existent in RQG.  Why that change?

[radmonger]

On 11/1/2022 at 3:27 PM, g33k said:

AA's would have a core function of raising/training Value-Trollkin to be spearmen-mercenaries.

As i see it, teaching and training are core functions of Rune Priests across all cults, and the priest occupation in general. There isn't a seperate 'teacher' occupation; it is Sunday School or nothing.

Cult initiates are those who _do_ magical things, rather than teaching them. A Rune Lord is an advanced type of initiate who fully dedicates their time to the cult, but does so by following some profession other than priest. In return they get supported by the cult as if they were a priest, albeit with a slightly different magical benifit package.

Heros are, by definition, exceptions. But in order for a cult to routinely have Rune Lords it must have an ongoing need for ritual champions. In effect, they are following an 'athlete' occupation. For example, I suspect hunter cults sponsor Rune Lords mostly so they can compete in the Great Hunt. Ernalda's Husband-Protector cults do so so they can compete for her favour. And so on.

 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, radmonger said:

As i see it, teaching and training are core functions of Rune Priests across all cults, and the priest occupation in general. There isn't a seperate 'teacher' occupation; it is Sunday School or nothing.

Cult initiates are those who _do_ magical things, rather than teaching them. A Rune Lord is an advanced type of initiate who fully dedicates their time to the cult, but does so by following some profession other than priest. In return they get supported by the cult as if they were a priest, albeit with a slightly different magical benifit package.

Heros are, by definition, exceptions. But in order for a cult to routinely have Rune Lords it must have an ongoing need for ritual champions. In effect, they are following an 'athlete' occupation. For example, I suspect hunter cults sponsor Rune Lords mostly so they can compete in the Great Hunt. Ernalda's Husband-Protector cults do so so they can compete for her favour. And so on.

 

Yes. For a cult to routinely have Rune Lords it needs to have an ongoing need for martial champions. Orlanth, Yelmalio, Humakt, Storm Bull, Babeester Gor, Waha, Yelm, Kyger Litor, Zorak Zoran, etc. These cults all have Rune Lords. Most of these cults have both magical specialists and martial champions, but In a few cults - Humakt, Storm Bull, Babeester Gor, Zorak Zoran, etc., - to lead the cult magically you NEED to be a martial champion.

But most cults don't have such an ongoing need, or rely on other cults for that role.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 11/1/2022 at 6:24 PM, Godlearner said:

AA go where Night's rule is not absolute and danger abounds. Trollkin need to be trained and organized and even though AA's primary role is not of a fighter, his leadership role speaks to the need of military aspects. I would say there is a good case there for some Rune Lords. 

in that case, it would be some trollkin to become rune lords, not the troll leaders, sending their little warriors, but not fighting by themselves if they can avoid it.  Will you let trollkin become rune lords ? naaaah impossible.

 

but  standard AA are in my opinion a merchant, herault, negociator, explorator... able to defend themselves but not looking for fight and glory. And if I were a vindictive AA, I would pay some martial experts to train a large trollkin troops, focusing myself on magic (support and attack)

[Jose]

I supose that does not exclude the goddess choose you to be the first runelord in a century for divine reasons you have absolutely no idea why. Maybe the husband protectors failed to protect the goddess from the lunars meddling. Remember there is always another way and these earth goddesses can be truly crafty and scheming. 

Just an example

[svensson]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

in that case, it would be some trollkin to become rune lords, not the troll leaders, sending their little warriors, but not fighting by themselves if they can avoid it.  Will you let trollkin become rune lords ? naaaah impossible.

 

but  standard AA are in my opinion a merchant, herault, negociator, explorator... able to defend themselves but not looking for fight and glory. And if I were a vindictive AA, I would pay some martial experts to train a large trollkin troops, focusing myself on magic (support and attack)

I'm kinda down with the idea of a trollkin Karrg's Son lording it over an Uz tribe somewhere... insofar as the Mistresses let him, of course. The idea of a SIZ 10 trollkin slapping around SIZ 18 Uzko warriors has a certain appeal. 🤣

Edited November 2, 2022 by svensson

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

The idea of a SIZ 10 trollkin slapping around SIZ 18 Uzko warriors has a certain appeal.

Does not have to be. Any multiple births are considered to be trollkin  even if they are Uz in every other way.

[Bill the barbarian]

15 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Does not have to be. Any multiple births are considered to be trollkin  even if they are Uz in every other way.

Great troll twins as Enlo... this is my fave!

[davecake]

Consider that there are some priests who are specified to have non-martial, primarily non-physical, duties, and whose physical skills are limited to DEXx5, and that Argan Argar is not one of them. An Argan Argar priest may be a warrior, and Argan Argar initiates can receive training in 1H spear, but it simply is not necessary for priests to be good warriors. It is a small part of AAs role.

 

[Joerg]

Eurmal killed off much of Argan Argar's role when he made Kimantor Nightson the Only Old One on the betrayal of the Lightbringers' Quest in the Obsidian Palace souterrain by killing his son. The race of the Kitori shadowlords was ended before it could spread out, and the ruler aspect became obscure, and the Nightcult became an adoptive race for the shadowlords (not shadowpriests) mastering all its mysteries, making them shapechangers on par with Vivamort's (likewise adoptive) spawn.

In Nochet, Argan Argar is a husband-protector and a war god. Good enough for the Kimantorings (the only part of the Nochet militia to operate away from Esrolia) to give Fazzur Wideread a measure of grief in his (very successful) conquest of northern Heortland (except for Whitewall) in 1619, easily outdoing Euglyptus's failure (although in all fairness he did not face a living Belintar).

(This really makes me wonder why the Empire had not tried marrying the Godking into the Lunar pantheon like they did with Pavis. Possibly the idea was nixed by the Assiday?)

 

Heler is another deity that lost much of its warrior aspect when his pirate culture was absorbed by the Vingkotlings.

A similar argument for at least local occurrances of Rune Lords could be made for Lodril, who is a major soldier deity. Pamaltelan Vangono is pretty much the warrior aspect of Balumbasta/Lodril separated out as an individual cult, without any of the Lightfore baggage of Hastatus Yelmalio that I have seen published so far. Teshnan Calyz is more of an everyman and crafter(famer deity, bits of Gustbran and Barntar tossed together, and possibly Mahome as well. Turos is Lodril as a lord without eeed for an emperor (and actually toppled by the second Pelandan emperor, Daxdarius who followed Gartemirus).

 

Goddess cults with rune ladies are few and far between. The Red Goddess, Kyger Litor, Aldrya (all of these predominantly male lords), Babeester Gor, VInga and Yelorna are the ones I can name without further research, but there aren't that many warrioress goddesses in Gloranthan myth anyway. Something like Artemis is subsumed by the Red Goddess, something like Athena or Morrigan is mostly absent.Kali as martial goddess might be found in Gorgorma.

 

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

Consider that there are some priests who are specified to have non-martial, primarily non-physical, duties, and whose physical skills are limited to DEXx5, and that Argan Argar is not one of them. An Argan Argar priest may be a warrior, and Argan Argar initiates can receive training in 1H spear, but it simply is not necessary for priests to be good warriors. It is a small part of AAs role.

 

Correct.

[g33k]

21 hours ago, radmonger said:

As i see it, teaching and training are core functions of Rune Priests across all cults, and the priest occupation in general. There isn't a seperate 'teacher' occupation; it is Sunday School or nothing.

Cult initiates are those who _do_ magical things, rather than teaching them. A Rune Lord is an advanced type of initiate who fully dedicates their time to the cult, but does so by following some profession other than priest. In return they get supported by the cult as if they were a priest, albeit with a slightly different magical benifit package.

Heros are, by definition, exceptions. But in order for a cult to routinely have Rune Lords it must have an ongoing need for ritual champions. In effect, they are following an 'athlete' occupation. For example, I suspect hunter cults sponsor Rune Lords mostly so they can compete in the Great Hunt. Ernalda's Husband-Protector cults do so so they can compete for her favour. And so on.

It seems to me that the AA-specific thing of turning Food Trollkin into militarily-useful Value Trollkin is a separate thing from the general "Cult Teaching" that all priesthoods do (including different from other Troll cults).

It's a uniquely AA thing to do, and it's martial... Everyone's Glorantha Will Vary, but this seems to me to be ample justification to include a Rune Lord of AA if a player wants to play one!

YGMV

Edited November 3, 2022 by g33k
ygmv