Illumination

[Akhôrahil]

When Jar-eel looks like one of the best-behaved Illuminates, you start to wonder just how enlightened they really are...

[Sir_Godspeed]

We've talked about this before, but Occlusion is, iirc, a Lunar term, and one that essentially means "someone Illuminated who reached conclusions that we don't like". It's a religio-political term more than, for lack of a better term, class description, imho. 

Then again, I do like the idea that Occlusion, in a more generic sense, is Illumination causing people to become solipsists, whereas regular Illuminates are more along pantheist lines. This is obviously arguable, but it's as convenient a division as any.

[Sir_Godspeed]

17 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Looking back over this thread, I have my suspicions as to whom. And, hilariously, I’m sure he has his own. Let’s leave it there.

🤓

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

When Jar-eel looks like one of the best-behaved Illuminates, you start to wonder just how enlightened they really are...

Jar-eel is the 4th Inspiration of Moonson, i.e. the Red Goddess reborn again in mortal form.  She's well beyond typical mortal Illuminate.  

[David Scott]

16 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

We've talked about this before, but Occlusion is, iirc, a Lunar term, and one that essentially means "someone Illuminated who reached conclusions that we don't like". It's a religio-political term more than, for lack of a better term, class description, imho. 

Then again, I do like the idea that Occlusion, in a more generic sense, is Illumination causing people to become solipsists, whereas regular Illuminates are more along pantheist lines. This is obviously arguable, but it's as convenient a division as any.

We have quite clear definitions, it's worth reading  page 206 of HQG A Note on Lunar Illumination and Occlusion:

Quote

The Lunars call those who are driven insane by their Illumination “Occluded,” but there exists no bright line division between Occluded and non-Occluded. Some prominent Lunar Illuminates have claimed there is no such thing as Occlusion, merely small-minded refusal to accept the full possibilities of Liberation. It is worth adding that such statements are commonly believed to be proof of Occlusion.

Likewise in Under the Red Moon page 33 (this section is completely in keeping with what we were working on for HQG and so I consider this to the best definition available)

Quote

 

What are Illumination and Occlusion?

Illumination is a peaceful and harmonious unification with the All.

Occlusion is the result of failed comprehension of the All. It is often described as “being crushed by the indifference of the cosmos,” “an awareness of the insignificance of the individual,” and a “loss of Self which is not replaced by anything else.” The hero senses that in some manner the Individual is All but interprets this to mean that All is Me. Most occluded are just never prepared for this confrontation, but occasionally an illuminate will encounter a revelation more powerful than she is ready for and fall into occlusion.

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

24 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Then again, I do like the idea that Occlusion, in a more generic sense, is Illumination causing people to become solipsists, whereas regular Illuminates are more along pantheist lines. This is obviously arguable, but it's as convenient a division as any.

"I'm part of all the cosmos" as opposed to "All the cosmos is a part of me".

I do agree that Occlusion is a completely subjective term about Illuminates people you mislike, though.

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Jar-eel is the 4th Inspiration of Moonson, i.e. the Red Goddess reborn again in mortal form.  She's well beyond typical mortal Illuminate.  

She's not the Red Goddess, she's a very naughty girl!

[g33k]

10 hours ago, David Scott said:

Likewise in Under the Red Moon page 33 (this section is completely in keeping with what we were working on for HQG and so I consider this to the best definition available)

Quote

 ... “being crushed by the indifference of the cosmos,”
“an awareness of the insignificance of the individual,”

 

So you're saying "Occlusion" is CoC's Mythos Knowlege skill?

[David Scott]

8 hours ago, g33k said:

So you're saying "Occlusion" is CoC's Mythos Knowlege skill?

No I'm not saying that, it's not in the text. That's your interpretation.

[soltakss]

On 9/14/2020 at 12:46 PM, Akhôrahil said:

I keep thinking that the Lunar hi-speed conveyor-belt mass-production Illumination method is bound to have less depth than others, but this doesn't seem to be supported. 

No, it is the difference between relying on wandering Riddlers and having established a core of static people who build up their knowledge of Illumination.

A similar effect happened in the established schools of Illumination, sages built up a number of Riddles and techniques, teaching them to their followers.

On 9/14/2020 at 8:14 PM, Nick Brooke said:

On 9/14/2020 at 7:45 PM, Akhôrahil said:

No, several people each writing their own Jonstown Compendium treatment of Illumination.

They will contradict each other, yet all be true.

Logically, given a — to all intents and purposes — infinite number of blind men grabbing at thIs particular elephant, one of them must surely have stuck his head up its arse. Looking back over this thread, I have my suspicions as to whom. And, hilariously, I’m sure he has his own. Let’s leave it there.

Me, me, me, me!

On 9/15/2020 at 10:33 AM, David Scott said:

Which leads to the question of how many actual examples of illuminates do we have?

Nysalor, Gjaji, all their followers, Arkat and his followers, Talor the Laughing Warrior, all the members of the various Illuminated schools, the Great Sister, Red Emperor, Red Gooddess, Ralzakark and his followers, possibly the Lunar-loving Orlanth Priest in Pavis before it fell. 

[Joerg]

On 9/15/2020 at 3:04 PM, jajagappa said:

Jar-eel is the 4th Inspiration of Moonson, i.e. the Red Goddess reborn again in mortal form.  She's well beyond typical mortal Illuminate.  

Shouldn't that have waited for the seventh inspiration?

But then, the fourth phase may be the Full Moon. Or one of the dark ones. One of the extremes.

The three previous inspirations are not in any meaningful way the Red Goddess reborn again in mortal form, and while Jar-eel certainly aims to become that, I wonder whether she was conceived as such, or to some other goal.

What she has in common with Teelo Estara is her struggle against the evil of the empire in Peloria (though that was a lot more true for Hon-eel, her great-aunt/sister, and Yara Aranis before her). Only it is her daddy's empire this time. (But then, who is the daddy of Teelo?)

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Shouldn't that have waited for the seventh inspiration?

Can't say what Greg's particular thoughts were in that regard, but Jar-eel is certainly the 4th.  And the Third Battle of Chaos certainly syncs with the Red Goddess' own return from the Underworld riding atop the Crimson Bat to destroy her foes in battle.

[Eff]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Shouldn't that have waited for the seventh inspiration?

But then, the fourth phase may be the Full Moon. Or one of the dark ones. One of the extremes.

The three previous inspirations are not in any meaningful way the Red Goddess reborn again in mortal form, and while Jar-eel certainly aims to become that, I wonder whether she was conceived as such, or to some other goal.

What she has in common with Teelo Estara is her struggle against the evil of the empire in Peloria (though that was a lot more true for Hon-eel, her great-aunt/sister, and Yara Aranis before her). Only it is her daddy's empire this time. (But then, who is the daddy of Teelo?)

My thought is that Jar-eel's approach to embodying the concept of Harmony/Harana Ilor/the celestial harp is what makes her the living incarnation of the Red Goddess- she devotes so much of her existence to selfless behavior Sedenya can speak through her nearly freely because there's not much self to mask things. 

Of course, station 4 on the Sedenya train is Rashorana- illuminated wisdom, but the Moon disappears from the world for a bit. That seems alarmingly apropos. 

[Jape_Vicho]

On 9/16/2020 at 11:21 PM, Eff said:

My thought is that Jar-eel's approach to embodying the concept of Harmony/Harana Ilor/the celestial harp is what makes her the living incarnation of the Red Goddess- she devotes so much of her existence to selfless behavior Sedenya can speak through her nearly freely because there's not much self to mask things. 

Of course, station 4 on the Sedenya train is Rashorana- illuminated wisdom, but the Moon disappears from the world for a bit. That seems alarmingly apropos. 

Do you think the other 3 inspirations are also connected to their respective moon phases? 

[John Biles]

On 9/16/2020 at 10:23 AM, soltakss said:

 

Nysalor, Gjaji, all their followers, Arkat and his followers, Talor the Laughing Warrior, all the members of the various Illuminated schools, the Great Sister, Red Emperor, Red Gooddess, Ralzakark and his followers, possibly the Lunar-loving Orlanth Priest in Pavis before it fell. 

The Emperors of Kralorela and a bunch of Kralorelans.

 

[David Scott]

On 9/15/2020 at 12:12 PM, David Scott said:

So actually we have very few examples to base any behavioural info on.

On 9/15/2020 at 12:25 PM, Kloster said:

Arkat?

All members of the Red Moon cult (though I can't remember of any being described) so all Red Emperors?

I actually meant individuals with documented illuminated behaviour. Generically it can be said that huge swathes of people were illuminated.

So Arkat is a good one as he changed cults, all Red Emperors would need specifics.

 

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

I actually meant individuals with documented illuminated behaviour. Generically it can be said that huge swathes of people were illuminated.

So Arkat is a good one as he changed cults, all Red Emperors would need specifics.

 

I agree with you. I said all Red emperors, because they are head of the Red Moon cult, and as far as I remember, ruleswise, all initiates of the cult have to be illuminated. This is the specific I used (and as you, I thought to Arkat because of the cult swaps).

[Eff]

12 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Do you think the other 3 inspirations are also connected to their respective moon phases? 

I think there aren't many connections if we're counting up (eg, what's Hon-eel's connection with Gerra?) but if we're counting down, then there are some substantial connections present:

1) Glamour/Zaytenera: a new beginning, a city emerging de novo. 

2) Yara Aranis/Natha: bring balance through violence, guardians of Hells.

3) Hon-eel/Orogeria-Ulurda: dualistic, gives birth to dawn and dusk together, brings life in the form of maize and death in the form of the Hon-eel Rites.

So a 5th Inspiration would have Gerra connections and *looks at the 8th Wane* that seems fairly plausible. And then there are "Seven Granddaughters of the Red Moon" at Moonfall, so perhaps things count all the way back down to zero.  

[Alex]

On 9/14/2020 at 12:46 PM, Akhôrahil said:

I keep thinking that the Lunar hi-speed conveyor-belt mass-production Illumination method is bound to have less depth than others, but this doesn't seem to be supported. 

I've some sympathy for this view, but I suspect it's more usefully gamified as as 'snark freely available from Kralori and East Isles sources' than as inferior magical powers manifest in the one as in the other.  (Which isn't to say I think that these are all equivalently the same 'Illumination' as such.  (Which isn't to say that I don't think Chaosium may well think they are.))

[Alex]

On 8/30/2020 at 12:07 PM, Darius West said:

Or is it?  This is something even the gods are on record as saying that they don't actually know.  If the gods don't actually know, and if travel to the void beyond the Sky Dome neither annihilates you nor gives you chaos features, but the primal plasma harvested from the Chaosium does, then what is really going on? 

It's above the gods' pay grade!  But travel to the void might readily do either of those things.  Or much else besides.  Whether you see it as a high cosmic mystery of a seething morass of raw entropy, going there is beyond the difficulty of any 'ordinary' heroquest, and correspondingly the results could be broader, deeper, and more drastic.  Mainly the latter if you get it wrong.

On 8/30/2020 at 12:07 PM, Darius West said:

I see the cosmic void as being very distinct from the Chaosium.    Absence is not chaos,  in fact it is closer to the Infinity Rune imo.  The void is a place of cosmic dragons and mystics who have refuted the world.  I suspect that if you have access to Air or some magical proxy thereof that you can walk on the Sky Dome.

Being above the Sky Dome 'merely' puts you into the theistic Solar otherworld.  Beyond that you'd reach the Aether, which you might see as a High God or fundamental rune sort of level of being, if like you me you have fond memories of the (admittedly ridiculous) cosmic scale of target numbers from the HW era.  The void/chaos is way beyond that too.

But many Gloranthan cultures and belief systems would see the too as the same, or at least inherently related.  For the theistic conservatives, because they see 'mystical' malarky as deeply dangerous in essentially the same way as chaos is -- it'll not just kill ya, it'll destroy you utterly on a spiritual level too.  And indeed, destroy the universe if you don't keep a close eye on.  And conversely for the mystics -- or at least prominent examples thereof -- they see the manifest forms of chaos differently from the 'kill it with lightning bolts!' squad.

The dragons are an interesting case.  Clearly even hardcore traditionalist Orlanthi see Dragon and Chaos are distinct -- but both being so fearful that the distinction is almost moot.  That gets more complex still when the Dragonfriend craic starts happening all over again, of course.  "It's a safe and renewable source of limited mystical understanding!"  "Sounds like what got us all killed last time, but we're desperate enough to give it a try."

On 8/30/2020 at 12:07 PM, Darius West said:

The  Chaosium is a much smaller place, and is likely the origin of all sources of Chaos Slime.

For me, the outer chaos is the source of creation of the world-as-is.  The Chaosium is the ultimate source of creation within the world.  Turns out a lot of creation ends up being bad -- whodathunk.

[Darius West]

On 9/26/2020 at 11:49 AM, Alex said:

But many Gloranthan cultures and belief systems would see the too as the same, or at least inherently related.  For the theistic conservatives, because they see 'mystical' malarky as deeply dangerous in essentially the same way as chaos is -- it'll not just kill ya, it'll destroy you utterly on a spiritual level too.  And indeed, destroy the universe if you don't keep a close eye on.  And conversely for the mystics -- or at least prominent examples thereof -- they see the manifest forms of chaos differently from the 'kill it with lightning bolts!' squad.

Firstly, I like your spin on things.  Secondly, given that some ultimate dragon may appear and go all Sacred Utuma on Glorantha, I think the Theists are probably correct.  Mystics are a bit of a conundrum, as they are both personally weak and cosmically terrifying.  As for mystics having multiple views on Chaos, I don't doubt it, but does Chaos actually care what Mystics think about it?  Wouldn't it be nice to actually have some rules for mysticism in RQ?

[Alex]

On 10/3/2020 at 7:18 AM, Darius West said:

Firstly, I like your spin on things.  Secondly, given that some ultimate dragon may appear and go all Sacred Utuma on Glorantha, I think the Theists are probably correct.

How very Augustinian of them!  "O Deity, make my one with thy Infinite Majesty...  but not just yet, we have the temple social tomorrow, and the big ceremony next week."

 

On 10/3/2020 at 7:18 AM, Darius West said:

As for mystics having multiple views on Chaos, I don't doubt it, but does Chaos actually care what Mystics think about it?

Very much depends what manifestation of Chaos you ask...

 

On 10/3/2020 at 7:18 AM, Darius West said:

Wouldn't it be nice to actually have some rules for mysticism in RQ?

I think that's probably of limited practical use.  While I dislike the idea that every sort of mysticism 'is' the same thing as Illumination, I'm not sure if the magical manifestations of mysticism are drastically incompatible with how that's cast in rules terms.  Maybe in the form of sub-illumination-like disciplines allowing the likes of martial artists, physical adepts, and such like, to use mashups of the familiars forms of magic in externally unfamiliar but internally somewhat standardised ways.

[John Biles]

4 hours ago, Alex said:

How very Augustinian of them!  "O Deity, make my one with thy Infinite Majesty...  but not just yet, we have the temple social tomorrow, and the big ceremony next week."

 

Very much depends what manifestation of Chaos you ask...

 

I think that's probably of limited practical use.  While I dislike the idea that every sort of mysticism 'is' the same thing as Illumination, I'm not sure if the magical manifestations of mysticism are drastically incompatible with how that's cast in rules terms.  Maybe in the form of sub-illumination-like disciplines allowing the likes of martial artists, physical adepts, and such like, to use mashups of the familiars forms of magic in externally unfamiliar but internally somewhat standardised ways.

I developed a set of rules for Mysticism for Heroquest which are grounded in the idea of Negation.

When a Mystic has a rune, they can Negate that rune - this sometimes may produce things which seem like having a positive relationship to the opposing rune.  They also had to take a series of strictures as their rating went up; if they break them, it can damage their relationship to the  rune.  Using the powers too blatantly could also mess you up.  They also had certain duties - using the rune in pursuit of those duties protected you from messing up the relationship and could justify blatant power use.  

So Sakurando Rin has renounced the Motion Rune - this lets her produce effects similar to the Stasis rune and defend against the Motion Rune, but if she produces blatant magic, she's in trouble, unless it's line with her Duty to Maintain the Imperial Government.  (She has two Strictures - Always Walk everywhere you go, You can never take the lead in a group).  

(Blatant = obvious magical effects.  Lots of people in Kralorela were Disciples of a Negation and could use it to boost things appropriately.  Masters could produce smaller-scale blatant effects like paralyzing someone, Sages do crazy things like forcing a dragon to sit and meditate by negating its Motion.)

[Storm Khan]

I always thought that the central Illumination for Glorantha was that of Nysalor / Gbaji, whereby Law and Chaos were declared The Same Thing.

Illuminated Lunars believe this, making way for a fatal degree of relativism, fatal in that it would accept the undoing of Time and the destruction of the cosmos.

After all, nothing really matters, right?

 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Storm Khan said:

I always thought that the central Illumination for Glorantha was that of Nysalor / Gbaji, whereby Law and Chaos were declared The Same Thing.

Illuminated Lunars believe this, making way for a fatal degree of relativism, fatal in that it would accept the undoing of Time and the destruction of the cosmos.

According to Cults of Terror,

Quote

The dark side of Nysalor is not, as one might expect, merely
alignment with Chaos. It is a more subtle temptation. Once
a being has realized that there is no final difference between
Chaos and Law, he may later make a similar but false parallel
between his personal ethics and his personal desires, reasoning
that since there is no ultimate division to the former, neither
is there any final difference between the latter. The parallel
is not consistent, however, since both Law and Chaos create
in different ways, and all creativity rests upon co-operation
between elements of existence. He who operates solely from
personal desire will not cooperate, since the childish core
of any being’s personality knows no constraint. Without cooperation
and creativity, the being is a parasite, living off or
stealing the products of others without exchange. Nothing he
can do or make can add to the sum of his species or culture. In
this sense, fully Lawful beings can be as much agents of the
dark side as was the worst Gbaji prophet.

Cults of Terror p87