Eurmalian illumination

[Darius West]

On 8/7/2021 at 8:33 AM, EricW said:

Ah but the God Learners in Slontos did try to power game Trickster, and it didn't exactly work out for them.

I would answer your concern this way.  The problem was about having a Great Temple of the Trickster.  Too many tricksters in one place and too many shrines with too many different spells.  Trickster isn't big on organized worship (or organized anything).  Too many pranks spoiled the temple.... A LOT!

As to individual tricksters using their powers for personal gain, isn't that the whole point?  Trickster enjoys having a live in the moment, short term advantage view of life, without consideration of long term consequences, or tries to anticipate the negative consequences with further negative consequences.  An illuminated trickster is liberated from many of the limits tricksters impose on themselves.  Remember that every trickster is their own spirit of retribution.

[g33k]

People often seem to compare/contrast Orlanth vs Sedenya, but I think Eurmal vs Sedenya is MUCH more illuminating...

 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

People often seem to compare/contrast Orlanth vs Sedenya, but I think Eurmal vs Sedenya is MUCH more illuminating...

 

Making the differences irrelevant, you meen?

[Leingod]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

People often seem to compare/contrast Orlanth vs Sedenya, but I think Eurmal vs Sedenya is MUCH more illuminating...

 

Which is funny, because if we take the Seven Mothers to be based on or otherwise echoing and mirroring the Lightbringers, Danfive Xaron is basically what happens when you put Orlanth in Eurmal's place.

[EricW]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

People often seem to compare/contrast Orlanth vs Sedenya, but I think Eurmal vs Sedenya is MUCH more illuminating...

 

Sedenya takes life far too seriously. She accepts chaos, but only when she can control it. Trickster isn't even in control of himself, let alone others...

[simonh]

34 minutes ago, EricW said:

Sedenya takes life far too seriously. She accepts chaos, but only when she can control it.

The Lunars use chaos to their advantage yes, but I don't think thats the only basis on which they accept it. By 'they' I mean those that are Sevened initiates of the mysteries and cult leaders, not ordinary citizens.

[EricW]

9 hours ago, simonh said:

The Lunars use chaos to their advantage yes, but I don't think thats the only basis on which they accept it. By 'they' I mean those that are Sevened initiates of the mysteries and cult leaders, not ordinary citizens.

Sedenya doesn’t offer “chaos feature”, she offers “chaos gift”, with a small risk of “wild chaos”. She even offers DI to choose exactly which chaos feature. The Lunars also hunt vampires and Thanatari, except they are training a secret vampire legion. IMO this suggests control, control, an unprecedented effort to control. 

[Akhôrahil]

One important difference between tricksterism and Illumination that I could see is this: To the Illuminate, the rules are ephemeral and don’t matter (you might decide to go with them anyway, but that’s your own personal, somewhat arbitrary, utterly subjective choice). To the Trickster though, the rules matter a lot - they need to be deliberately broken! If the rules don’t matter, then what’s even the point?

[Bren]

On 8/20/2021 at 5:51 PM, Akhôrahil said:

One important difference between tricksterism and Illumination that I could see is this: To the Illuminate, the rules are ephemeral and don’t matter (you might decide to go with them anyway, but that’s your own personal, somewhat arbitrary, utterly subjective choice). To the Trickster though, the rules matter a lot - they need to be deliberately broken! If the rules don’t matter, then what’s even the point?

So for a Trickster "rules are made to be broken" and you can't break the rules if there really aren't any rules. I like it. 😀

[EricW]

Lets not forget, it was Trickster who sowed the seeds of the EWF, by teaching a human how to speak Auld Wyrmish. 

Stealing dragon magic is a bit like the legend of Trickster stealing fire for mankind ;-).

Since Trickster clearly understands dragons enough to cause mischief, a draconic illuminated Trickster is surely possible. In a world where humans mostly lost contact with dragons magic, a new draconic trickster would be a major draw, people from all over including the empire would seek them out, to learn wisdom and a bit of dragon magic.

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, EricW said:

Lets not forget, it was Trickster who sowed the seeds of the EWF, by teaching a human how to speak Auld Wyrmish. 

Also a Trickster, or Imp, who showed the God Learners how to HeroQuest.

Spoiler

In the Third Age, Argrath's trickster is the one who traps the Deities in the Net for the Devil to devour.

I wouldn't be surprised if a Trickster was the instigator of Castle Blue and the battle for the Clanking City, or even designed the Clanking City in the first place.

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

On 8/21/2021 at 11:01 PM, Bren said:

So for a Trickster "rules are made to be broken" and you can't break the rules if there really aren't any rules. I like it. 😀

Isn't that the Vadeli?

[Ali the Helering]

6 hours ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

Isn't that the Vadeli?

I believe Pratchett would say it sounded quantum...

[simonh]

6 hours ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

Isn't that the Vadeli?

The Vadeli don't just break the laws of Malkion as such, they follow an inversion them.

[Leingod]

On 8/21/2021 at 8:01 PM, Bren said:

So for a Trickster "rules are made to be broken" and you can't break the rules if there really aren't any rules. I like it. 😀

Adding onto that further, the Illuminate believes that the rules simply don't matter/don't apply to them because of their deeper understanding. But if the rules didn't matter, there'd be no point in spending so much time breaking them, so obviously the Trickster thinks they matter even if they don't think the rules themselves are worth following.

The Illuminate has realized that the rules are illusory, changeable, and arbitrary, and so decides they're unimportant and chooses to ignore them; the Trickster has realized that the rules are illusory, changeable, and arbitrary, and feels compelled to show this to everyone; possibly out of simple Schadenfreude and amusement, but possibly also to try to compel others to rethink their blind obedience to these rules (and gods).

[EricW]

1 hour ago, Leingod said:

Adding onto that further, the Illuminate believes that the rules simply don't matter/don't apply to them because of their deeper understanding. But if the rules didn't matter, there'd be no point in spending so much time breaking them, so obviously the Trickster thinks they matter even if they don't think the rules themselves are worth following.

The Illuminate has realized that the rules are illusory, changeable, and arbitrary, and so decides they're unimportant and chooses to ignore them; the Trickster has realized that the rules are illusory, changeable, and arbitrary, and feels compelled to show this to everyone; possibly out of simple Schadenfreude and amusement, but possibly also to try to compel others to rethink their blind obedience to these rules (and gods).

Except the Storm Bull Oddi the Keen in Lords of Terror chose to obey the rules when he was illuminated.

A trickster could similarly choose to remain true to their calling, of breaking the rules. Because if they choose to break the rule that tricksters break the rules, they end up obeying them 😉

Or even weirder, the trickster might not realise they are now an illuminate. All life is illusion, why would Eurmal allow a follower to grasp an introspective truth?

Edited August 24, 2021 by EricW

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, EricW said:

Except the Storm Bull Oddi the Keen in Lords of Terror chose to obey the rules when he was illuminated.

Importantly, Oddi was Illuminated by "tricksters", so there's something there, at least.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[EricW]

38 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Importantly, Oddi was Illuminated by "tricksters", so there's something there, at least.

I suspect Eurmal has no problem with illuminates, just makes them more gullible to weird pranks. Illuminates are not certain of reality or their place in the world , imagine the havoc you could wreak on their state of mind with a few lie spells.

[PhilHibbs]

8 minutes ago, EricW said:

Illuminates are not certain of reality or their place in the world ,

Quite the opposite. Illuminates understand their place in the world in a way that nobody else does. Freshly illuminated, yes you might be confused for a bit.

[EricW]

15 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Quite the opposite. Illuminates understand their place in the world in a way that nobody else does. Freshly illuminated, yes you might be confused for a bit.

Then why are they susceptible to occlusion?
 

Illuminates are as susceptible to delusion as anyone else, particularly with regard to themselves, maybe more so, because they have lost the anchor of culture and tradition.

A trickster who lied and told a storm bull he needed the power of chaos to defeat chaos would die a round later - outrageous lies can be rejected. But tell this lie to an illuminated storm bull and it might really cause them to question their choices.

[Sir_Godspeed]

15 hours ago, EricW said:

Then why are they susceptible to occlusion?

Isn't, ultimately, occlusion just a term for "conclusions based on illumination that we don't like"? 

[soltakss]

19 hours ago, EricW said:

Then why are they susceptible to occlusion?

Occlusion is a Lunar thing, in my opinion.

Non-Lunar Illuminates don't suffer from occlusion.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Occlusion is a Lunar thing, in my opinion.

Non-Lunar Illuminates don't suffer from occlusion.

I personally doubt this, although I do think the Lunar style of cheap expediated conveyor belt Illumination does significantly worse than other styles.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

Occlusion is a Lunar thing, in my opinion.

Non-Lunar Illuminates don't suffer from occlusion.

While I can see the term Occlusion being specific to the Lunar Empire, I also doubt the non-Lunar Illuminates don't suffer from it.  We might simply term it megalomania, particularly the thoughts that you are freed from all obligations, or even have achieved a god-like state.

[Sir_Godspeed]

As far as I understand, the TERM "occlusion" was coined by/used by the Lunars, to basically describe Illuminates whose worldview they regarded as wrong (like Sheng, for example). Given that it is, as far as I understand it, effectively an opinion and not something objectively concrete, it could be borrowed and applied to... well, basically any Illuminate whose conclusions you find wrong. 

I think the most widespread usage I've seen out-of-universe, is as a term for those Illuminates who embrace thier Illumination as a path to power (cf. Jajagappa's megalomania comment above) as opposed to the more renunciate and less involved Illuminates that orthodox mystic traditions tend to produce. This, obviously, puts Lunar Illuminates (who are the absolute vast majority of Illuminates in central Genertela) in a really interesting spot, given their obvious temporal-political agenda, at least collectively, if not necessarily individually.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed