Peace between the Red Moon and Orlanth

[Elcid321]

Hi everyone, i'm here asking a few questions that came to my head.

1.- would it be possible for orlanth and the red moon to find peace? and how?

2.- what would be the effects in the world if peace was managed?

now, this question came to me after reading some adventure or campaign idea that i found in 4chan /tg/, that is about an orlanthi warrior and a red moon priestess that fell in love (like romeo and juliet), and initially they are running away from the war, trying to find someplace to live in peace, but after sometime, they decide to do a heroquest so that Sedenya and Orlanth married, thus, maybe putting an end to their conflict.

so, i was curious if any of this is possible, how it would be acheived, and what would be the effects on the setting, specifically the example that i wrote.

sorry for the bad english.

[Thaz]

27 minutes ago, Elcid321 said:

1.- would it be possible for orlanth and the red moon to find peace? and how?

2.- what would be the effects in the world if peace was managed?

Hmm are you asking about Lunar and Oralthi characters or the entire civilisations/cultures?

In either case. Yes. IMHO. Both cultures have large elements of compromise built in and a history of making a friend (or servant) out of the enemy. Now this is not how the Hero Wars are destined to go according to King of Sartar and various other sources. Who gives a damn about that tho' right? Your Game Must Vary. Sure. It would take something really epic, the two cultures have really gone head to head (which seems untypical of them both to be honest) after generations of conflict. The Lunar Empire pretty much bred an entire generation of nobles and soldiers to conquer Dragon Pass. But Player Agency is a thing. If they set their minds it, working with perhaps great powers like Cragspider and the Feathered Horse Queen they might find a way. It would be epic and involve many HeroQuests and Diplomacy and likely a lot of heads smashed together and Kallyr, Argrath, Herrick and Jar-El are going to be problems....but hey why the heck not right? The right people die, the right people get converted to the cause, compromise! "There is always another way"

Peace between individuals or even love?  "Would you believe in love at first sight? Yes I'm certain it happens all the time" 

What would the world of Glorantha look like afterwards? Well, that would be for your game to find out no? Did one Absorb the other (I can see Argrath absorbing the Lunar Empire by fire and the sword or by peaceful means. Likewise we know what a bloody violent Lunar take over and victory would look like, but should the Red Goddess and Orlanth mary say? )

[French Desperate WindChild]

I would say god Orlanth and goddess Moon will find peace as the result of Argrath's job.

For the secular empires, I don't know how far will go Argrath's army, how the carmanians will react, etc ..;

Is it a full absorption ? another "client" of the new empire ? a split between differents factions ?

[Joerg]

There can be no peaceful coexistence between Orlanth and the Red Moon in the Middle Air. Orlanth has ceded sovereignty over the Upper Sky to the Solar deities in the Compromise while ascertaining his continued presence there.

The Moon Goddess was notably absent from the deities in Hell agreeing to that Compromise. A moon presence in the sky realm only could solve the dispute about the Middle Air. Peace might be possible that way.

But then, would Moon (of whichever colour) be satisfied with that remote a role?

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There can be no peaceful coexistence between Orlanth and the Red Moon in the Middle Air.

my view of peace after Argrath job is RIP, so don't care middle air, just care existence 

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

my view of peace after Argrath job is RIP, so don't care middle air, just care existence 

"it is still there, but now it is invisible..."

[EricW]

The red moon embraces chaos. Chaos in Glorantha is a manifestation of the end of the world. 
 

Orlanth is the god who first wrecked the world, then led the effort to save the world. So he is unlikely to want to make peace with a goddess who represents the failure of his greatest mythic feat.

It is possible to corrupt Orlanth. Lokamayadon somehow used the chaos magic of Gbaji the Deceiver to usurp some of Orlanth’s power, to appear in Orlanth temples and interfere with initiation rites. If the Lunars ever figure out that trick Orlanth is in a heap of trouble.

It might also be possible to purge the chaos from the moon, arguably this is what Argrath did.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by EricW

[Bohemond]

From Orlanth's POV, the Middle Air is his property and Rufelza is claiming it as hers. So imagine that you have your house--it's bought and paid for and legally yours (the Great Compromise)-- and one day some woman shows up and just moves her stuff in and says that the house is actually hers. She manages to defeat you in a fist fight (the battle of Castle Blue) and then her buddies (the Lunar Empire) just move into your whole neighborhood and start forcing your friends to stop talking to you (the banning of the worship of Orlanth), and then she locks you in your bedroom and tries to starve you to death (the Chaining of Orlanth). Oh, and she's a big-time drug dealer (Chaos) whose customers are threatening to trash your house and start it on fire. 

Are you ever going to agree that she can live in your house and that legally you and she will share it and you'll be friends? Or are you going to go to court to prove the house is actually yours and tell her to get the fuck out?

[Desert Wind]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

"it is still there, but now it is invisible..."

That was definitely the best part or Argrath's Saga. Gives hope for the future

Edited June 12, 2020 by Franky Umathsson

[The God Learner]

In My Glorantha, Which Varies, the Red Goddess is destroyed per the book in the Third Age; in the Fourth Age, there may be an Invisible Moon, but since things are quite undocumented and confused in that period, we are not sure; in the Fifth Age, a White Moon has risen.

However, the White Moon is the result of a lasting peace and reconciliation between Orlanth and Yelm. This White Moon is (5th age) Orlanth.

(I suppose I shouldn't veer into discussing Orlanth the Fool, derived from a somewhat tendentious reading of the Gods' War and what came before it. But he subsequently leads to Orlanth White Moon.)

 

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Elcid321 said:

Hi everyone, i'm here asking a few questions that came to my head.

1.- would it be possible for orlanth and the red moon to find peace? and how?

Ignoring connections of the current moon, mythologically they occupy the same space and as a result are opposed. This stretches right back to when the original moon goddess dipped over the edge of the perfect sky. Ideally they would meet each other as equals and marry with the Moon being the centre of Orlanth.

As to whether it's possible? It would take truly enlightened humans to achieve this. Argrath marring the White Moon on his apotheosis would be a positive step towards it, supported by a new religion. Ernalda would become his concubine, and her handmaidens would make sure the couple were bountiful. A new age of harmony would come into existence. 

This is clearly Argrath's aim. I'd have him bringing back Jar-eel reborn as the White Moon.

7 hours ago, Elcid321 said:

2.- what would be the effects in the world if peace was managed?

It would only really affect the storm areas. But the 4th Age would be a new age of harmony, with the birth of their children.

7 hours ago, Elcid321 said:

now, this question came to me after reading some adventure or campaign idea that i found in 4chan /tg/, that is about an orlanthi warrior and a red moon priestess that fell in love (like romeo and juliet), and initially they are running away from the war, trying to find someplace to live in peace, but after sometime, they decide to do a heroquest so that Sedenya and Orlanth married, thus, maybe putting an end to their conflict.

so, i was curious if any of this is possible, how it would be acheived, and what would be the effects on the setting, specifically the example that i wrote.

of course what a great story.

7 hours ago, Elcid321 said:

sorry for the bad english.

Your English is good!

[Borygon]

Most of Orlanth myths are about him becoming best friends with his enemies. Of course he can be friends with Sedenya too.

[Leingod]

1 hour ago, Borygon said:

Most of Orlanth myths are about him becoming best friends with his enemies. Of course he can be friends with Sedenya too.

Only his enemies that aren't Chaos. As stated by several others in this thread, Orlanth can make compromises, but not with Chaos. So one of them has to change on a fundamental level; either you have to somehow get Orlanth to embrace Chaos, or get Sedenya to repudiate it. The latter is what IMG the White Moon would represent, and which Orlanth could be reconciled with.

[g33k]

Or as an alternative take...

 

Sedenya goes a-heroquesting to repurpose the Storm-taming "Yoking of Urox" myth, instead taming Orlanth.

Orlanth becomes Prince-Consort under the Red Moon (literally "under", as she ascends through the Middle Air, and joins the Sky).

Peaceful coexistence (but Ernalda is probably pissed, so... maybe not).

 

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, Leingod said:

Only his enemies that aren't Chaos. 

On the other hand, while "Orlanth Chaos-Friend" is certainly out there, it's not inherently impossible (cf. Hellwood Krjalki Yelmalio on Soltaks's page).

Sedenya illuminates him into understanding that Chaos, too, can be compromised with... 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Leingod]

Like I said: One of them has to make a fundamental change (or have it imposed upon them). Either Sedenya repudiates Chaos or Orlanth embraces it, but either way the two as they are now are irreconcilable.

[creativehum]

I love the premise of this thread.

I also think it's like one of the most important questions to ask about Glorantha.

@Elcid321, thank you for starting it!

[dumuzid]

Mythically, to effect this reconciliation, wouldn't Orlanth need to assume Yelm's role in their own myths?  Be slain, meet Sedenya in the Underworld, and forgive her in exchange for concessions?  Might this have been a goal of certain Lunar or other mystics in the Wind-stop, intended to facilitate Sedenya's evolution through an Underworld confrontation of the living goddess and the defeated god, that was disrupted by Broyan and the Eleven Lights?

[Crel]

5 hours ago, g33k said:

Or as an alternative take...

 

Sedenya goes a-heroquesting to repurpose the Storm-taming "Yoking of Urox" myth, instead taming Orlanth.

Orlanth becomes Prince-Consort under the Red Moon (literally "under", as she ascends through the Middle Air, and joins the Sky).

Peaceful coexistence (but Ernalda is probably pissed, so... maybe not).

Or both things happen; Jar-Eel/Sedenya fulfills the Storm-taming roles, while Argrath/Orlanth fulfills the wooing of Ernalda roles. Each seeing their own role, naturally, as the more important one. It seems to me that a common thread especially in Storm/Earth mythology is that a success can't happen without both roles involved, and each participant sees their role as the most important.

The one which always returns to my mind is that Orlanth couldn't have Made the Storm Tribe without Ernalda.

[Joerg]

There is no way that Orlanth can abandon his marriage to Ernalda. Without her, he is no king, not the principal heir of Umath. Maybe you need to find a way for Sedenya to become both husband of Ernalda and wife of Orlanth, in a menage a trois similar to that of Daliath, Framanthe and Sramak(e). Sedenya should have the altering sex down pat.

Heler has that role, but not the cosmic importance. Maybe you need to prove Valare Addi's original thesis right?

[GAZZA]

28 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There is no way that Orlanth can abandon his marriage to Ernalda. Without her, he is no king, not the principal heir of Umath. Maybe you need to find a way for Sedenya to become both husband of Ernalda and wife of Orlanth, in a menage a trois similar to that of Daliath, Framanthe and Sramak(e). Sedenya should have the altering sex down pat.

OK so that means I apparently understand less about Heroquesting than I thought I did (and believe me that is saying something; I am now wondering if I actually have a negative amount of knowledge).

Let's suppose we have Bob the Orlanthi Hero. He goes on an experimental Heroquest and discovers a myth that shows Orlanth was actually originally a member of the Sky pantheon that co-opted a barbaric storm god's powers after defeating them, and then subsequently went on to off Yelm etc.

Bob returns to the Mundane plane.

My understanding is that this does not retroactively change the myths of all Orlanth worshippers, nor even at Bob's only temple (even if Bob is the high priest). My understanding is that at best all this does is allow Bob to create a Hero cult or subcult that has these heretical teachings - in effect, the best you can do with a Heroquest is to establish a competing religion, not alter an existing religion in place.

Now, if Bob's hero cult proves to be very useful and/or popular, it may eventually supplant existing older versions of Orlanth, and thereby organically eventually become the mainline Orlanth cult - but that is only "from now on", not retroactively.

Therefore, it seems to me that an Orlanthi hero quester could theoretically find/create a myth whereby he gives Ernalda the flick and goes for Sedenya without busting anything - such a hero would "simply" have created a new (presumably illuminated) subcult of Orlanth that may or may not eventually supplant the Ernalda-loyal version. I'm not going to suggest such a hero quest would be easy, or even feasible, but it's not clear to me that it would be utterly impossible.

Though I confess it's not clear to me how, if these limits exist, that Nysalor was able to wound Korasting, since that would seem to mean that even if he did that, he'd simply have created a new variant Kyger Litor cult that, evidently, few trolls would follow. So it seems that some hero quests must be able to alter things "without consent", as it were.

A roundabout way of saying that I know bugger all about Heroquesting, I suppose.

[Joerg]

I rather mean to say that each heroquested change will bring a number of collaterals that will affect the world in addition to the change you've wrought. Think of a Rubik's cube - it is impossible to change just one segment of the cube, but you can change two or three by a series of operations.

Orlanth's claim to kingship of the universe is based in his ongoing marriage to Ernalda, as far as I understand Glorantha. When Orlanth sent himself into exile, no longer was he king, and his marriage suspended, too. Enough so that he himself became one of the many suitors for Ernalda's temporary favours. (And - unlike Penelope - each of these suitors left her with child, because that's what wooing Ernalda is about. No idea how Penelope avoided pregnancy.)

[John Biles]

48 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I rather mean to say that each heroquested change will bring a number of collaterals that will affect the world in addition to the change you've wrought. Think of a Rubik's cube - it is impossible to change just one segment of the cube, but you can change two or three by a series of operations.

Orlanth's claim to kingship of the universe is based in his ongoing marriage to Ernalda, as far as I understand Glorantha. When Orlanth sent himself into exile, no longer was he king, and his marriage suspended, too. Enough so that he himself became one of the many suitors for Ernalda's temporary favours. (And - unlike Penelope - each of these suitors left her with child, because that's what wooing Ernalda is about. No idea how Penelope avoided pregnancy.)

The Oddessy establishes that she played them off against each other, so she didn't have to marry / sleep with any of them, but she couldn't get rid of them either, until her hubby came home and shot them all.

 

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, GAZZA said:

OK so that means I apparently understand less about Heroquesting than I thought I did

It can be a tricky subject.  It's also important not to read it as "history".  Myth describes how the world functions, and transforming that is difficult.  Myth also always has two sides (or more).

5 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Let's suppose we have Bob the Orlanthi Hero. He goes on an experimental Heroquest and discovers a myth that shows Orlanth was actually originally a member of the Sky pantheon that co-opted a barbaric storm god's powers after defeating them, and then subsequently went on to off Yelm etc.

E.g. Orlanth is Lightning Boy.  Lightning Boy isn't conquered by the Storm Ram, but the other way around.  Lightning Boy returns to the court of Yelm, but becomes enamored of Ernalda and agrees to kill off Yelm to free her.  Lightning Boy gains Death from Humakt and kills the Sun.  Does that inherently change the myth?  Not really.  Lightning and thunder still go together.  Storm still covers/kills the Sky/Sun.    

What does that mean for Bob the Orlanthi Hero?  Which role did he take?  Was he Lightning Boy or the Storm Ram in this quest?  If the former, then Bob's likely increased his Fire rune and diminished his Air Rune; maybe got a really good Lightning Spear, and an allied Storm Ram.  If the latter, then Bob's been stripped of his Thunder powers by Lightning Boy, and certainly has no lightning powers.  

5 hours ago, GAZZA said:

My understanding is that this does not retroactively change the myths of all Orlanth worshippers, nor even at Bob's only temple (even if Bob is the high priest). My understanding is that at best all this does is allow Bob to create a Hero cult or subcult that has these heretical teachings - in effect, the best you can do with a Heroquest is to establish a competing religion, not alter an existing religion in place.

The myth you are looking at is why does Lightning (Fire) go with Thunder and Clouds (Storm).  If you follow my example above, change depends upon the role Bob took, whether he was doing this for himself or his community, and whether others adopt his story (i.e. increase worshippers).  Also depends on whether he tried to change the myth further.

1) Bob undertook for himself alone.  If he played Lightning Boy, then he's now more attuned to Fire than Storm, and wields more Lightning powers.  If he played Storm Ram, he's still closely tied to Storm, but he got beat, and can't wield lightning (he's not got thunderstorm powers).

2) Bob undertook for his community.  Not overly different from 1, except either the local temple can wield more Lightning powers, or lost the Thunderstorm ability.  No impact upon any other temples, or the world in general.  While the effects vary, you haven't really changed the myth or story - it's a bit different (did the wolf eat grandma, or not), but no world-affecting change.

3) If other clans hear of it, and find they want more powerful Lightning Spears, then they might follow this quest path too.  Eventually, a whole tribe or group of tribes follows this myth and now they all have powerful Lightning Spears.  But, there are likely other ramifications now.  Lightning Boy is associated with Fire, not Storm.  Instead of the Storm Ram gathering the Four Magical Weapons (of which the lightning spear is one), now its Lightning Boy doing so.  And he's Fire, not Air.  He can't sneak into the Underworld to get the Sandals of Darkness. He can't hide amidst the Scarf of Mist.  Maybe he can't even bring the Rain with him.  The tribe finds they get powerful Lightning Storms that spark huge wildfires that devour the crops and woods instead....

So such a change begins to have ripple effects now in the Otherworld, and those are reflected back into the Mundane world.

5 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Therefore, it seems to me that an Orlanthi hero quester could theoretically find/create a myth whereby he gives Ernalda the flick and goes for Sedenya without busting anything - such a hero would "simply" have created a new (presumably illuminated) subcult of Orlanth that may or may not eventually supplant the Ernalda-loyal version.

Yes, a quester could find such a path.  And it's one that could be brought back to benefit the community (and will likely lose something in the process - i.e. the blessings of Ernalda).  (Doesn't need to be Illuminated particularly, though could become so - and that might be the requirement/task set by Sedenya to marry someone.)

E.g. in the Place of Strange Gods after having been put into the Pit, Orlanth encounters Sedenya.  He listens to her, and falls in love with her, and carries out her deeds.  They marry.  Orlanth goes off on other adventures and comes to Yelm's Garden.  Now he encounters Ernalda.  Does he want to woo her, too?  But she recognizes that he is married.  What then???  Or, he is faithful to Sedenya, and does not help Ernalda.  Is it Sedenya instead who says he should kill Yelm to assume his right place?  Could be...  But there are ongoing chains of consequence in the myths.  Generally, the myths will try to retain their general shape/form.  If pushed too hard, the myths will likely snap back (as happened with the God Learners).

6 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Though I confess it's not clear to me how, if these limits exist, that Nysalor was able to wound Korasting, since that would seem to mean that even if he did that, he'd simply have created a new variant Kyger Litor cult that, evidently, few trolls would follow.

He could wound Korasting/Kyger Litor, by following the myth of Yelm entering Wonderhome.  The trolls sought to stop Yelm and were burned away.  Nysalor followed the path into the Darkness and burned Korasting, the fertility of Kyger Litor.  Kyger Litor is still the Mother of the Trolls, but now she is more deeply wounded.  You're not going to stop worshipping your mother as a consequence, even if she is weaker (the option is to die out altogether).

[scott-martin]

7 hours ago, GAZZA said:

a new variant Kyger Litor cult

Always room for one more.

On 6/12/2020 at 4:02 AM, Elcid321 said:

now, this question came to me after reading some adventure or campaign idea that i found in 4chan /tg/, that is about an orlanthi warrior and a red moon priestess that fell in love (like romeo and juliet), and initially they are running away from the war, trying to find someplace to live in peace, but after sometime, they decide to do a heroquest so that Sedenya and Orlanth married, thus, maybe putting an end to their conflict.

I think their lives would be that heroquest and their children (biological or spiritual) will be able to discover new gods for the new world that follows. From a certain point of view, the children might actually be the new gods. Empires can rise and fall in the background.

It's a great storyline. Run it and see what happens! Like Romeo and Juliet, you don't really need to explain their relationship in cosmic terms or explore centuries of philosophical development. Other characters (and people here!) will do that for you. All you need to do is give them a place to express their love. They are demanding that the world recognize that love. This is heroquesting.

To make your life a little easier I might make her a refugee or pilgrim from all the way up in the Arrolian Territories on the western frontier or (maybe a better option) Oraya in the east. She isn't quite like most of the lunar people we see in Dragon Pass. Her view of the world is a little different. She was taught different things from what people raised at the heart of the empire learn. Then when the wars accelerate they can run back to her people and see the world along the way. He can start out relatively basic because we already know a lot about Dragon Pass Orlanth. But along the way he learns a lot about the limitations and deep potential of his god too.