Heroquesting, how is it done?

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

A short cut to Power Gaming? 

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 2/7/2022 at 4:46 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Could someone initiate a HQ spontaneously if they happen to notice some middle world events seem to coincide? E.g., a ZZ troll (band?) notices a Sun Domer (unit) get its butt kicker by some Storm worshipper(s) on a hill somewhere. Would there be a way for them to force a HQ upon the scene, so they could get some extra benefits from attacking them?

not raw, just my thoughts

 

it may happen. But it shouldn't happen all the times

after all, when people want to heroquest, they may fail even to "enter". There is no (for me good) reason to do it

 

but it may happen. When dices say it (for example , roll an idea-INT / feeling-POW to see if the pc understand / feel that is "like the myth" and now "they are the myth" ) or when the GM decides. Personaly I never let the dices decide when/if an important scene should happen.

 

 

 

[soltakss]

On 2/7/2022 at 10:45 PM, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

A short cut to Power Gaming? 

A lot of people think that HeroQuesting is about Power Gaming.

It really isn't. 

It is more about exploring mythology and how it relates to the world.

 

[JRE]

Spontaneous heroquests should be fun, and usually because the players realise it, not the GM, unless it is the planned plot.

If your Uz players meet a Yelmalio rune lord, left wounded but alive at the top of a hill  by an Orlanthi wind lord, that is clearly done in purpose by the GM. Gloranthaphiles may well recognize the parallels, but unless you are cursed with God learnerish players, most players will just think "easy enemy" and if they are in the right mind set, "Food and a traditional enemy to beat up, Zorak Zoran will be pleased with me." So the GM should point it out and then take it as a HQ.

The other possibility is player initiated. 

A group of Uz sneak on a bunch of Yelmalions that have just beaten back an attack by orlanthi bandits on a road slope, and are starting to heal up and reform, and ideally a Zorak zorani says: "Hey, that is like the myth we replayed in the holy day when I got ignite. Maybe we can beat them easy and get Zorak Zoran's help ". Depending on my mood and how it fits with all the rest of the game, I may say:

- No, they have won and it is not a hill, but you can still have your ambush.

- Well, it is similar, roll your ZZ passion and if you succeed you have double bonus and your companions are inspired with a single bonus from your passion, but you cannot kill beaten enemies, though you can still rob them. Otherwise the myth may punish you. If they win, the ZZ will probably get some benefit, either now, or in the next holy day. 

- You feel Zorak Zoran filling you with his anger and strength, and you notice one of the goldilocks is shining from within, and you recognize he is your enemy. The Zorak Zoran Yelmalio conflict becomes the most important, though the others still get enemies to beat. Results depend on how close to the myth things go. 

[Macronaut]

On 2/6/2022 at 6:39 AM, soltakss said:

Absolutely, yes, this can happen.

Yes, that is a good example. The Adventurers would be sucked into a HeroQuest, perhaps without knowing. They would have encounters with beings they might recognise, or with normal people taking on that part, perhaps also unknowingly.

Yes, they are This World HeroQuests.

However, the benefits are not the ones you get out of normal HeroQuests. Instead, they reinforce the myths and keep the fabric of the world in place.

Many thanks for the mention.

Secrets of HeroQuesting is available as a PDF and as a POD, with a bundled price for both. If you have bought the PDF previously and then buy the POD, email me, or send me a PM, and I'll send you a $2 voucher on DTRPG.

It is 27 away from Gold Seller, by the way, so if people who are interested in HeroQuesting buy a copy then we might push it to Gold.

 

Thanks to all for great responses on my earlier question.  So here's a follow up: what happens when an adventurer starts to re-enact the myths of a cult he or she is not part of?  Does it matter that he or she is a non-believer?  For example, to use my Python scenario, what if a worshipper of Osiris kills the snake with arrows?  Does it matter that the adventurer is re-enacting a myth that he has no religious context for or doesn't believe?  Does that person still get the Prize?  Does it affect that person's standing with their own deity?  What if a troll re-enacts a sun god's myth?

[Nick Brooke]

Play the game to find out!

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, Macronaut said:

Thanks to all for great responses on my earlier question.  So here's a follow up: what happens when an adventurer starts to re-enact the myths of a cult he or she is not part of?  Does it matter that he or she is a non-believer?  For example, to use my Python scenario, what if a worshipper of Osiris kills the snake with arrows?  Does it matter that the adventurer is re-enacting a myth that he has no religious context for or doesn't believe?  Does that person still get the Prize?  Does it affect that person's standing with their own deity?  What if a troll re-enacts a sun god's myth?

I would say - it depends completely on whether the person is aware of the myth. In RQ terms, do they have a Cult Lore rating in the cult/god of the myth.

Also, remember that every myth has at least 2 sides - the main protagonist and any antagonists. Eg, Yelm & Orlanth. They have their own versions of what happened on the Hill of Gold, which in some ways are contradictory. So, do they need to believe in the other version to get something out of it?

Also, look at the Godlearners - they certainly didn't "believe" in the deities that they were exploring (except perhaps as inferior spirits). Yet, they were able to plunder immense treasures.

[Runeblogger]

9 hours ago, Macronaut said:

What if a troll re-enacts a sun god's myth?

I think a heroquester needs the God World to identify her as the particular god she's trying to emulate. To do so, she needs a strong runic affinity with that god. She also needs to know the basic myth. Otherwise, she won't reenact the myth properly, and she may wander off around the God World, getting in serious trouble and probably end up with a hefty curse (if she manages to return alive at all), instead of the blessing the myth usually provides.

So if that troll wants to reenact a sun god myth, she first needs to have a strong Fire affinity (which will be extremely difficult, but not impossible), she will also need to learn the sun god's myths or either access them from the POV of the Darkness enemies the sun god faced.

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Also, look at the Godlearners - they certainly didn't "believe" in the deities that they were exploring (except perhaps as inferior spirits). Yet, they were able to plunder immense treasures.

I think that this statement is weird. Probably wrong.

The God Learners would not have wasted time researching a topic that wasn't meaningful to them in some quite fungible way. Instead, they put in resources and risked their own lives to usurp and enter these deities rites and myths in order to be able to understand, exploit and manipulate them.

[jajagappa]

13 hours ago, Macronaut said:

So here's a follow up: what happens when an adventurer starts to re-enact the myths of a cult he or she is not part of?  Does it matter that he or she is a non-believer? 

While particular myths appear within specific cults, myths as a whole are broader than any cult - and many are universal regardless of cult origin.  (Also bear in mind that few would argue with the existence of the gods - the idea of "non-belief" is not really applicable.)

For instance, while the Hill of Gold can be interpreted as a specific set of Yelmalion myths (the Sun once more overcome by the Storm, the Sun bleeding out/losing its powers), at a broader level it is a story of Survival in the face of Adversity.  Despite losing powers that may have defined you, in the end you hold onto the Truth of your Self, and Survive/Persevere to see the Dawn.  (In many ways it is not that far off from the tale of Odysseus - loss of everything, survival, and return Home.)

If you come at it from this viewpoint, then when an adventurer starts to re-enact certain myths, the story becomes personalized - and they have to determine whether their god provides secrets to deal with that myth, or not, and if not, how do they acquire the secrets needed to "succeed".  As Nick notes above, you have to play the story out to see how they interact with or shape the myth, and what it ultimately means for them, or their clan, or even their cult.

[Godlearner]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

The God Learners would not have wasted time researching a topic that wasn't meaningful to them in some quite fungible way. Instead, they put in resources and risked their own lives to usurp and enter these deities rites and myths in order to be able to understand, exploit and manipulate them.

I am not sure about that since it relies heavily on what is meaningful. I would say they would have collected everything and attempted to catalogue and make sense of it later. To me issue became then those who did the interpretation were not careful enough or did not understand the risks while concentrating heavily on the rewards.

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

I think that this statement is weird. Probably wrong.

The God Learners would not have wasted time researching a topic that wasn't meaningful to them in some quite fungible way. Instead, they put in resources and risked their own lives to usurp and enter these deities rites and myths in order to be able to understand, exploit and manipulate them.

Drawing on RL examples, there have been many anthropologists and sociologists who have had their own personal beliefs, yet participated in the rites and rituals of other cultures, without sharing that full belief.

With the GLs, I suggest that they were fully aware that they're working with something - but perhaps not precisely what the locals think it is. Certainly they couldn't have seen them as the big, mighty and powerful beings their worshippers do (it they wouldn't have played with them so much).

 

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

I think a heroquester needs the God World to identify her as the particular god she's trying to emulate. To do so, she needs a strong runic affinity with that god. She also needs to know the basic myth. Otherwise, she won't reenact the myth properly, and she may wander off around the God World, getting in serious trouble and probably end up with a hefty curse (if she manages to return alive at all), instead of the blessing the myth usually provides.

So if that troll wants to reenact a sun god myth, she first needs to have a strong Fire affinity (which will be extremely difficult, but not impossible), she will also need to learn the sun god's myths or either access them from the POV of the Darkness enemies the sun god faced.

Personally, I wouldn't go there as a requirement for successful HQing.

The Fire rune is a good example, is it represents fire, sun, sky, and at a macro level, heat, warmth and light. There are many gods that have this Rune for these various aspects.

So, just having a high affinity, for me, is insufficient (and misleading). They help to define a.person's character, rather than an allegiance.

Cult Lore, Devotion and Worship would be the go to ones for me... With the occasional Augment in stressful periods (and when very specifically required/appropriate).

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Drawing on RL examples, there have been many anthropologists and sociologists who have had their own personal beliefs, yet participated in the rites and rituals of other cultures, without sharing that full belief.

But unlike this world's anthropologists, the God Learners were able to observe the magical exchange and access to the Otherworld in those rites, and they acquired the knowledge to ride on that same magic to enter the Other Side, and to follow the paths through Godtime, and encounter the entities of Godtime.

There is no requirement for belief. Not for the real initiates who have the soul connection (the initiatory POW exchange) with the cult entity, and not for the community of lay worshippers supporting the initiates and rune masters with their MP sacrifice, votive and sacrificial offerings expecting these people to use their blessings and rune magic on behalf of the community, or out of obligation for previous events. Or the hangers on who participate in the rites in exchange for other personal gains like skill training, battle magic, or knowledge.

The God Learners did one experiment where they made a population in Umathela conduct worship to an invented deity, Jogrampur. It isn't quite clear how they managed to do that, but I suppose that God Learner wizards acted as the priesthood for this community, probably using some form ofyter as receptable for the magic points and personal power invested by the community which they then used for their sorcery which provided the magical reawards to the community, possibly by commanding lesser Otherworld entities under their domination  (sprit cult entities) to provide some rune magic. On the Other Side, they would observe the nexus of energies coalesicng and leaving a trail of energies connecting to the rest of Godtime

I suppose they made this experiment to further their understanding of what happens with the magic sacrificed in the Invisible God worship rites, that part of the magic that does not go to the officiating wizards but is passed on to the worshipped entity instead.

But in the end, the worship rituals are a pretty predictable exchange with the Other Side, where a regenerating resource of the Surface World is given to the worshipped entity, and an amount of Other Side magic is entering the Surface World, in the fom of blessings or rune points, or in the case of the worship of the Invisible God, magic points available to th officiating wizards to cast magic with. There is no questipn of belief.

 

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

With the GLs, I suggest that they were fully aware that they're working with something - but perhaps not precisely what the locals think it is. Certainly they couldn't have seen them as the big, mighty and powerful beings their worshippers do (it they wouldn't have played with them so much).

The God Learner participants certainly did not havev the same perception of those rites as regular initiates would have, even if they were technically initiated to the cult and perceive the rites like normal initiates or rune masters, since they had the additional information from their RuneQuest Sight. But then, an Illuminate participating in a cult rite would have an extra perception of the activities, too.

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

But unlike this world's anthropologists, the God Learners were able to observe the magical exchange and access to the Otherworld in those rites, and they acquired the knowledge to ride on that same magic to enter the Other Side, and to follow the paths through Godtime, and encounter the entities of Godtime.

short and long: imagine if the anthropologists could just do your rituals and change the stories on you and it worked. like, super glad you figured out heroquesting, but that's a special hell level of colonialism

[JRE]

The RW anthropologists would be more equivalent to illuminates than God Learners, though I am sure some GLs (the most succesful ones) were closet illuminates. They can take roles, but they see more sides, though maybe not all sides, as that depends on your knowledge being complete

As said above, I also think that your knowledge limits what rioles you can take. No spontaneous heroquest will allow a typical orlanthi to follow the draconic version of Orlanth and Aroka. Your own knowledge limits your options, and your powers too. An orlanthi initiate may play several roles, though shallowly. A Orlanth Rex Rune Lord will have difficulties being anything but Orlanth as a leader. That actually helps MGF, as PCs may be weird enough to take key roles in clan or tribe heroquests, because they are more flexible than the clan ring.

[Scorus]

Right now we have a lot more philosophy than mechanics as far as Heroquests go. There are several pre-RQG and current JC publications that give some mechanics, but Jeff has said that those do not fit his and Stafford's concept. But they have promised us mechanics on this for 2-3 decades, so we have to go with the rules we have or make up our own. Or, in almost all cases, both.

[dumuzid]

22 hours ago, Scorus said:

so we have to go with the rules we have or make up our own. Or, in almost all cases, both.

Yeah, I pretty much just riff off the principles provided in Arcane Lore when it comes to heroquesting, and will likely continue to do so until something official comes down the pipe.

[finmirage]

I wrote down the Hero Questing rules, I use at my table. They are made for the RQ Glorantha rules and are dependent on the runes that you have in that system. The rules were inspired by Simon Phipp's excellent web page and various other discussions I've ran into online:
https://finmirage.blogspot.com/2023/11/quick-hero-questing-rules-for-rune.html

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 1/24/2024 at 1:40 PM, finmirage said:

I wrote down the Hero Questing rules, I use at my table. They are made for the RQ Glorantha rules and are dependent on the runes that you have in that system. The rules were inspired by Simon Phipp's excellent web page and various other discussions I've ran into online:
https://finmirage.blogspot.com/2023/11/quick-hero-questing-rules-for-rune.html

very interesting, thanks for it 🙂

my feed back just to share it, no judgement

 

Overall I think it very consistent, simple, not overpowered just like I like things

Your choice to remove the mundane system (no skill, no magic, etc) to replace it with rune + hit points allows a lot of things. But I don't know if I would use it for all (I'm thinking in the same time)

 

Hit points:

- I like the concept.

- I would not add the mundane magic point (too temporary) but maybe the POW (ok it is the same, but no matrix, etc.. just the soul of the character)

- As the character plays the role of a deity, I would add 100% of the RP from the deity cult if the pc is initiate+ in this cult. If not initiate 50% of the best RP the pc may have among associated cults of the deity (ex: A plays Orlanth and is Orlanth's priest with a  rune pool of 10, I had 10 hit points. B plays Issaries but is not initiate of Issaries mysteries, she is only Vinga initiates with 4 RP, I add 2 hit points)

- I see your hit points as fuel (to "cast" what they want) and help to fix issues they will face (see below)

 

Community support rituals

- Nothing to add 🙂

 

No magic use

- here I m embarrassed (not sure of the word) In one hand I understand it, in the other hand, some issues.

a) divine power (i voluntary don't use rune spell, but that's the point) If the pc know how to call winds in mundane world, they should have facilities to call winds in the other world, comparing to another questor. So if you know the spell, your cost (hit points) could be lower (-50% ?) than if you don't know the spell (and if you get a success ? or a  special ?, with POW sacrifice, you know the spell)

b) as cults teach some spirit magics, I would consider that pc may use the equivalent of spirit magic. Maybe (just an idea, like the rest, that could be challenged) pc can use their spirit magic at a higher cost if the god/cult doesn't teach it (x 2 ?), but in the other way, the questor may have access to all the "spirit" magics known by the god (in the same way than a). The basic cost (you and the god you play know the spell) could be 1 hit point for 2 spirit magic intensity (aka 1 hit point = bladesharp 2)

c) sorcery. I have absolutly no idea about sorcery. My concern is how to explain what god learners did in the god time if sorcery doesn't work ?

 

Metaphysical Equipment

- I agree with your definition.

- Now I would say that, if you start the travel with the right mask, the right type of weapons, the right bag of grain, etc ... any "symbol" of the metaphysical equipment (so you are well prepared) the quest would be easier.

- Then enters the hit points: if at station D you don't have the bag of grain (not because you lost it during the heroquest but because you did not enter with a bag of grain) then you should "buy" the bag of grain invocation  with some hit points

 

Stations

well we have the same references, thanks to Simon 🙂

 

Resolution

- I dont know, in one hand yes the rune must be important, but maybe, if you are a powerfull climber you should be able to use your skill.

Maybe the good compromise would be : you roll your rune as you said. But you have to roll an augment with the skill (or something else) You have to, it is not an option. If you succeed you get the bonus, if you fail, you get the malus, etc.. then your Rune is important, but at the same level of rune, the one who knows how to climb  will have more chance than ... me 🙂

In addition I would offer something that if you burn 1,3,8 hp you may add +10,+20,+30% to your roll

Path Deviation

yes, and I would add that you may have to "buy" the price of this deviation (= hit points, again). Don't know the cost, but if you are the same god, lower than if you change, same with the period (green age versus darkness age, etc..

Failure

great

Other stuff

great

Rewards and consequences

there is the purpose of the quest, and the consequences may apply, depending on the success of each station, on the community

from a questor perspective, I would add something with the hit points

What you describe as gain (skills,etc...) could be bought and not automatic. For example, with the death rune, Rolof succeed his fight with a sword. Rather than getting a d6% in sword, Rolof may have the possibility to buy 1, 2 or 3d6% (for 1, 3 or 8 hit points you saved during the quest)

Same for spirit spell (1 hit point per 1 point of spirit spell) or new rune spell / heroic spell (1 hit point for a 1 RP spell, 3 hp for a 2RP spell, 8 hp for a 3RP spell) in addition of a pow sacrifice, maybe 1 POW for any spell (1, 2 or 3RP)

Then more you are prepared (saving HP), more you fit with the myth (saving HP), more successful you are (saving HP), better will be the gain

And if you finish the quest with 0 HP, happy you are as you offer to your community the gain of the quest, even if you did not discovered any power (except the rune experience)

 

 

 

I choose 1 3 8 from Fibonacci sequence (1 - 2 - 3 - 5 - 8 ...)

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 2/10/2022 at 12:36 AM, soltakss said:

A lot of people think that HeroQuesting is about Power Gaming.

It really isn't. 

It is more about exploring mythology and how it relates to the world.

 

Though this is a side issue from the thread, I'm going to strongly disagree here.  

1. Orlanth / Harmast / Argrath didn't undertake the LBQ to "explore mythology". 
2. Sacred Time quests are performed to get good omens for the upcoming year. 
3. Initiation or obtaining rune spells are to achieve a (minor) power gaming effect. 
4. Whenever an NPC has some powerful magic item or insane stat or skill, it is attributed to "heroquesting".

A Heroquest to "explore mythology" is a fascinating idea, I've just never heard of one.  Except by the God Learners, and that turned out, well, poorly.

[Joerg]

Belintar used heroquesting to build things up. Understanding mythology was necessary for his feats (like raising Loon Island, installing the magical bridges and the Fish Roads, creating the Building Wall...) and for achieving the Proximate Holy Realm that brought divinity to his lands, or at least his City of Wonders.

And then there is building to empower the heroquesting - all the edifices created by Belintar served to support his questing. Just like the roads and walls of Sartar, the Daughter's Road, or the Reaching Moon Temples. Malkioni urban architecture was developed to optimize magical support (for the sorcerers, but later also used by the Men-of-All).

Greg was very keen on tracking the support infrastructure of the heroquesters, and would use the Hero Wars/HQ-mechanics to simulate the economics of such support. RQG offers a different method of tracking such investment, it will be interesting to see Jeff's solution for this mechanic.

[French Desperate WindChild]

for me heroquesting is to solve an issue :

- you want to defeat your community's ennemy

- you want to save your people from any disaster

- you want your community to corner some resources

- you want to save the world (or your community's world)

 

so the intent is to power your community (restore or obtain). Gaining some personal benefit is a positive side effect more as a reward of the potential sacrifice questors do (they risk their lives and souls after all) than the main goal.

Questors should be happy and proud if they succeed to help their community even if they get nothing for themselves from the heroplane.

And their people will praise them for that (and some of their leaders may want their death for that too... jealousy / fear.... when you hold us 🙂 )

 

I m talking about critical heroquests, not those -easy- to learn a rune spell. Even if, I m sure, temple -so community- do effort to support the learning so somewhere learning the spell is to strengthen the community too.

 

Except for lone adventurers of course... except for bad / evil / chaotic questors too

 

now, from a table (GM / player) perspective yes exploring the myth may be the goal.

Not for gloranthan characters or maybe only for few fool scholars

 

from another table, power gaming (having better stats, better stuff, etc...) may be the goal too.

Not for gloranthan characters, glorantha is not a game for them, it is their world, or maybe only for few fool "illuminates" (not the illumination in the nysalor and other school sense, but just as these fool weirdos)

[radmonger]

The way I see it, there are three categories of HQ:

• the ones your community knows about, and are already doing regularly.
• the one your community knows about, but consider too difficult and dangerous to do regularly.
• the ones noone knows about, and has no idea how difficult they are.

The first is just where Rune magic comes from. You can play these out, but it will be just a cameo or interlude.

The second is the classic KoDP HQ, Kallyr's LBQ, etc. This means getting the power and support to be the ones selected to try what everyone in your community thinks probably can't be done. This is the kind of thing that can be the focus of a long term campaign.

So in a lot of ways the most interesting and playable hind of HQ is the third. The ones that involves local or exotic gods, interactions between gods who are neither associates or major enemies, and so on. Stories you discover (i.e. make up).

These can be as easy or difficult as the GM wants. PCs can be pulled into them, discover a scroll or rumor, or take the initiative to ransack a library to see what they find on a given topic. They travel to a dangerous location, fight or otherwise deal with guardians, gather clues to understand what is going on, and make choices.

If what they do counts as some form of success, they get a magical reward. This will normally be on the same scale as other Rune magic; a single use of a 1 to 5 point Rune spell or enchantment. This can be one their cults won't normally get, or made using the spell creation guidelines in the RBoM.

One use magic can be made reusable by founding a shrine, and be taught to others by sponsoring a priest or God Talker to tend that shrine. While there are epic magic rituals which have rewards on the scale of tens or hundreds of Rune points, this is the main way in which a personal HQ can change the world.  

A great magic can build a wall. A much lesser one can start the process of teaching people to build their own walls .

 

 

[Darius West]

On 11/29/2019 at 10:20 PM, buckwheats said:

Hello,

as a newbie in Glorantha I am trying to get a grip on the awesome concept of heroquesting.

What I want to know is, how is it done? On the one hand from the point of view of the hero quester and on the other hand ruleswise (RQG). 

Is it "just" ritualistic reenactment wholly done on the middle plane?

Is it a ritualistic reenactment (or “just” a ritual without the reenactment) that transports the heroquester to the desired hero plane (in person or just the soul, like a dream journey)?

Is it a conscious “planeshift” to the heroplanes by a spell (which spell?) at the climax of a ritual or a portal at the center of holy site/the bottom of a nameless dungeon/the belly of a true dragon?

Is there a connection between the hero planes and the spirit plane? Could a shaman get to the heroplanes via the spirit plane?

Is it all of that or more? Does it vary depending on the Hero Quest? Or is it nothing like that?

Is there a definite (upcoming?) answer? Or does it fall under YGMV (which I could live with)?

Thanks a lot

 

The forthcoming GMs Guide to Glorantha will have actual rules for Hero Quests (or so we have been promised).

In regards to which plane the Hero Quest happens on, the answer is both.  The organization behind planning the hero quest has to gather a great number of ritually prepared objects, and do a lot of praying prior, to set up the ritual.  It can take the better part of a season or even a year.  Many resources are put into a hero quest, and the magic is supposed to propel the quester "like a surfer on a wave".  In some ways a hero quest is like multiple castings of the Summons of Evil ritual, as a certain series of antagonists will be drawn to encounter the quester.  I think saying that people bounce onto the Hero plane is something of a description, but it may not evoke quite what is happening.  The quester and their antagonists imo are actually meeting slightly outside of Time.  These are timeless battles of ancient archetypes we call gods, re-enacted to awaken the dormant power of these encounters and drag them back into the world.  As an analogy that may or may not be helpful, symbols are the words, myth is the syntax, ritual is the sentence, hero questing is the speaking aloud of the sentence. 

Edited January 26 by Darius West