Kuschile Horse Archery

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, icebrand said:

If im playing a beast nomad and i get "speak with horses" gift, then the GM and me are gonna have words (though burning down their house is also an option)

You should go around insulting any horse you see.

[icebrand]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

You should go around insulting any horse you see.

I take it back, now i want a nomad with permanent speak to horses hahhaha

[PhilHibbs]

35 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

You should go around insulting any horse you see.

33 minutes ago, icebrand said:

I take it back, now i want a nomad with permanent speak to horses hahhaha

Tell them how much better Praxian herd beasts get treated, how the horse riders don't love their mounts, how they can never be able to be treated as people through the covenant's magic, and then drop the punch line "Hey, why the long face?"

[Kloster]

6 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Hey, people are still calling Brian Johnson the new guy in AC DC 42 years later.

But he is not anymore. Too bad.

[Darius West]

19 hours ago, metcalph said:

Not really.  There was a Shaman's Alliance that opposed the Pol Joni but Sartar made everything right.  This seems to have made the Pol Joni paying respects to the Paps at which point they cease to be Quivini and start to being Praxians.

Edit: It's occurred to me that taking place in 1489 would have made it almost 30 years after the fall of Sheng Seleris.  The Shaman Alliance were operating against a background of being bossed around by the Pentans not so long ago and may not have been quite so xenophobic.

Given that Sheng was so recently tossed out, it is actually surprising that the Praxians weren't on a complete rampage against horse folk when you think about it.  There can be little doubt that an alliance by Praxians would have destroyed the Pol Joni.  You also have to question whether horse folk can ever really start being Praxians, but apparently the Pol Joni managed it thanks to Sartar's negotiating skills.  I stand by my earlier statement that Praxians have a very nuanced and opportunistic horse prejudice, not outright fanaticism. 

[Nick Brooke]

It's not as if Sheng occupied and dominated Prax, like the Pure Horse Tribe did back in the Second Age, when so many tribes of honest Waha-fearing beast nomads were exiled from their homeland...
"By the serpents of the Greatlands, we laid [our mounts] down and wept for thee, when we remembered Prax..." 

[soltakss]

On 5/25/2022 at 12:56 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Does Kuschile work with other mounts?

If not, going to be a bit of a problem in most of Prax then...

Yelornan Unicorn Riders get Kuschile archery, as least they did, so it is not just horses.

Balazaring Yelmalians also accessed Hawk Archery, which works on their Giant Hawks.

On 5/25/2022 at 2:43 PM, icebrand said:

I use it as a gift & geas. You get it, you get a geas, you are no longer limited by your ride skill, thats it!

That is how I have always used it.

 

[Oracle]

On 5/23/2022 at 10:53 PM, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

I can’t find a reference to kuschile horse archery in Runequst: Roleplaying in Gloratha could someone clarify where I can find it’s description and mechanics?

As this question has not yet been answered:

As far as I can say, there is no description of Kuschile horse archery available for RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha - at least not yet. It seems, that this skill will be part of the upcoming cult's book (but that's just me guessing from the statements in this thread), as this skill will be provided (at least) by the Yelmalio cult.

The only rule mechanic for mounted archery so far is on p. 213/214:

Quote

Shooting While Moving
An adventurer cannot shoot while moving or dodging. The only exception to this is mounted archery, which is performed at the same ability chance as regular archery, assuming the Ride skill of the archer is equal to the skill with the missile weapon. If the Ride skill is lower, the attacker’s skill is reduced to the level of the Ride skill.

So it seems (again my guess), that the skill reducing of archery depending on the Ride skill will be removed, if the Kuschile horse archery is used successfully. Starting value for Kuschile horse archery seems to be 25%, and you get another Geas with this skill.

All this is me deducing from the statement in this thread. Could well be, that I've missed something ...

[Jape_Vicho]

On 5/28/2022 at 10:50 AM, soltakss said:

That is how I have always used it.

Just curious, when you do gifts of Yelmalio, do you let the player choose the gift? 

(I know it's not on topic but i'ts related and I don't want to create ANOTHER Yelmalio thread)

Edited May 29, 2022 by Jape_Vicho

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Just curious, when you do gifts of Yelmalio, do you let the player choose the gift? 

Not usually.

Yelmalio blesses his worshippers with powerful abilities.

Humakt allows his worshippers to choose their gift.

 

[icebrand]

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Not usually.

Yelmalio blesses his worshippers with powerful abilities.

Humakt allows his worshippers to choose their gift.

 

I make them roll for both, but i'm evil.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

Yelmalio blesses his worshippers with powerful abilities.

Humakt allows his worshippers to choose their gift.

While I agree with this intuitively, the rules have roll or player's choice in both cases, so it's kinda unfair to have rolls in one case and not the other.

Humakt: "Specific gifts are chosen by the player, or can be rolled by the gamemaster."

Yelmalio: "An initiate may take a gift and its geas ... chosen by the player or rolled by the gamemaster." 

[Baron Wulfraed]

36 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

While I agree with this intuitively, the rules have roll or player's choice in both cases, so it's kinda unfair to have rolls in one case and not the other.

Humakt: "Specific gifts are chosen by the player, or can be rolled by the gamemaster."

Yelmalio: "An initiate may take a gift and its geas ... chosen by the player or rolled by the gamemaster." 

Although, unless there was a qualifying statement not included in your quoting, a literal reading for Humakt could imply the player can choose the gift -- but the geas is rolled. Yelmalio, OTOH, implies that the player could choose both the gift AND the geas.

[Akhôrahil]

13 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Although, unless there was a qualifying statement not included in your quoting, a literal reading for Humakt could imply the player can choose the gift -- but the geas is rolled. Yelmalio, OTOH, implies that the player could choose both the gift AND the geas.

This is correct, although it's probably fair to think that in the absence of any other information, Humakt geases use the same system as the gifts.

[Godlearner]

15 hours ago, Oracle said:

As far as I can say, there is no description of Kuschile horse archery available for RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha - at least not yet

I would say its a good time to change it then. How about making it somewhat similar to what used to be Martial Arts and for example allow the user to modify the to hit location by 1/10 of the skill.  

[MOB]

11 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Although, unless there was a qualifying statement not included in your quoting, a literal reading for Humakt could imply the player can choose the gift -- but the geas is rolled. Yelmalio, OTOH, implies that the player could choose both the gift AND the geas.

Diagetically, it is the Gloranthan god Yelmalio who decides which gifts and concurrent geases are bestowed on those who follow him. Why particular gifts and geases are given is ineffable.

Non-diegetically, that is, at the gaming table, a random roll is made on both the Gift and the Geas tables, with the usual caveat that MGF applies. 

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

On 5/30/2022 at 1:37 AM, MOB said:

Diagetically, it is the Gloranthan god Yelmalio who decides which gifts and concurrent geases are bestowed on those who follow him. Why particular gifts and geases are given is ineffable.

I have learned a new word today!  Now, how to use it . . .

[davecake]

On 5/25/2022 at 9:47 PM, Godlearner said:

My problem with this skill is that in real life, it was developed and practiced by mounted nomads and not farmers.

Mounted nomads don’t need it - their Ride skill is already very high. Pentans and Praxians virtually live in the saddle - and so the skill as written is of minimal utility to them.

What it does is magically (it requires cult membership and a geas, it’s not a fully mundane skill) guides farmers to have some of the abilities of their mounted (spiritual) ancestors. 

[Godlearner]

1 minute ago, davecake said:

guides farmers to have some of the abilities of their mounted (spiritual) ancestors. 

Yeah, and realistically speaking, how many of these farmers actually have mounts?

From a gaming point of view, it's a pointless skill.

[davecake]

On 5/26/2022 at 1:36 AM, Ludovic aka Lordabdul said:

And this actually makes me think of another half-assed rule: if it's spiritual, what about allowing ritual practices with it?

This is a very useful suggestion, that makes Kuschile archery more useful, especially on a military scale, without radically changing anything. 

Another possible rule change would be to say that your archery skill is limited to your Ride + Kuschile skill? So the Kuschile archery skill is both much more useful (for most poor riders that’s a big boost, compared to the fairly marginal skill advantage from the RAW), but there are still reasons to increase the skill for many (if you are an experienced archer like a hunter, but a new rider, it’s very possible your Bow skill is more than 25% higher than your Ride), and it’s not overpowering, just useful. 
 

Even with both of these ideas in play the skill still has no utility to good riders, though, and real light cavalry requires riding skill, not just mounted archery - which means Yelmalio is back the point to joining the cult where joining the Yelmalio cult is generally a net negative for light cavalry like the Impala tribe - the Kuschile skill offers nothing for good riders, and the cult offers no real archery magic, not even spirit magic (the closest it gets is Farsee), and deprives them of even the possible use of one of the most useful spells for them, FireArrow. Even Lightwall isn’t very useful - it’s valuable for infantry as a screen against enemy ranged attacks, but moves too slowly (and even then, is an active spell which makes it very restrictive on actions) to be very useful for cavalry. Sunbright probably (it’s not clear) isn’t useful against attackers from outside the radius of its light, making it of limited value to cavalry as well. So we are left with the question of why would an Impala brave want to join Yelmalio? It makes them a marginally worse warrior than if they had simply remained a Waha warrior, offering no general benefits at all, and even the Gifts of Yelmalio are mostly of fairly limited value. 

[davecake]

28 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

From a gaming point of view, it's a pointless skill.

Oh, for the occasional adventure who didn’t get Ride in their previous experience and suddenly decides they need to do some mounted adventuring, it might have some value. But even then it’s marginal, and it’s value to a whole society seems very marginal indeed. Sometimes it might be useful to get a few farmers or whatever to respond to bandits or something, but it mostly is a poor substitute for trained light cavalry. 

[JRE]

I will repeat myself, as the thread is long and it has been broken in pieces so it is difficult to follow all of it.

In my opinion most of the Impalas males will join Waha and work as mounted archers. Yelmalio is for those males that for some reason are more oriented into defence than attack. They learn to use spears, can usually bring light to the dark, or even see in it, and probably pride themselves (and are considerd fools by the other Impalas) in standing and fighting rather than jumping away from danger. They are necessary to defend the clan camp, but even more important when the clan is on the move, to protect the non-combatants. They are the ones on foot that set their spears to stop the bison among the tents. The ones that hold the last line between the pregnant mothers, the elderly and the children and the enemy raiders. Considering the elemental associations they will be traditional enemies of the Morokanth, and their techniques work well against the slavers. They also fit well in a group of pygmies whose main ability is mobility, because there are some things you need to defend, you cannot always run away.

I am sure that makes them quite popular among the non-combatants in the clan, and they will usually stay in the camp while the other braves go away raiding, hunting or scouting. You may be considered somewhat lower than the Waha braves, but sleeping most nights in a bed (when you are not on watch), in a camp with two or three women for each man... I wonder if the Praxian Yelmalio does not share some myths with the Orlanthi Heler as the protagonist of ribald tales. 

I proposed that Kuschile archery could work from wagons and chariots as well, but in fact I expect that due to their role, these are the few Impala braves that may be lacking in Ride, and the fact that they stand and fight when necessary does not change that their mean weapon is still the bow. So, a revised Kuschile skill, such as allowing to simply add KA to ride, no roll necessary, no extra time lost in play, would fit them perfectly. They probably will not have battle trained mounts, so it is more a matter of mobility than actually fighting mounted. 

I may be wrong in this, but as has appeared also in other thread, it is important that the game proposes cult roles and functions to players and GMs, as the role of Yelmalio among the Impala is different than among the Esrolians, or within an independent Sun Dome, even if the cult itself can be recognized as the same.

[M Helsdon]

4 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Yeah, and realistically speaking, how many of these farmers actually have mounts?

Most Yelmalions are peasant farmers and are unlikely to have horses. However, Sun Dome temples outside Prax are likely to have their own herds. The Yelmalion nobility are likely to learn to ride and drive chariots, but most of the laity will not, meaning that Kuschile's skill enables the raising of a mounted militia when necessary, including the protection of the flanks of the phalangite phalanx.

4 hours ago, Godlearner said:

From a gaming point of view, it's a pointless skill.

Not if you are playing a Yelmalion who has little or no ride skill.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

In my opinion most of the Impalas males will join Waha and work as mounted archers. Yelmalio is for those males that for some reason are more oriented into defence than attack.

Using Cults of Prax, Appendix C, you'll see that Yelmalio and Waha membership is nearly identical. The more up to date figures differ slightly. Yelmalio is also one of the inter-tribal cults.

1 hour ago, JRE said:

They are the ones on foot that set their spears to stop the bison among the tents.

There is little if any ground fighting among the mounted nomads

1 hour ago, JRE said:

The ones that hold the last line between the pregnant mothers, the elderly and the children and the enemy raiders.

These will all mount up. Pregnancy and age are not a limit to riding. Children are safest on mounts. Remember that they camp in the centre of their herds.

 

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Yeah, and realistically speaking, how many of these farmers actually have mounts?

From a gaming point of view, it's a pointless skill.

There are loads of Yelmalio temples, why limit your players to one or two:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/jeffs-old-blogs/15-sun-dome-temples/