Moon Design running Chaosium?

[TrippyHippy]

People are entitled to their views, and certainly their tastes, but the last post just strikes me as incredibly whiney. 

RQ6 doesn’t have to be crunchy at all - the fundamentals of the game run on the same core engine as BRP ever did. There is a tactical element in the combat, and some development in other subsystems, but it’s just a straightforward % system when it comes down to it. Perhaps some of the mooted upcoming supplements, like Classic Fantasy will put a different emphasis on the rules presented. 

I don’t play HQ either, and was also underwhelmed by the 7E Call of Cthulhu rules development. I also know that some of the people involved in creating RQ and CoC in the first place feel the same way too, but there are still alternatives that exist. With regards to BRP, they haven’t said they are dropping it, merely that it isn’t a priority because of comparatively weak sales. There is some strategic thinking that needs to be done around how to manage all these disparate versions of BRP that exist currently as there has been a degree of pointless fragmentation if we are honest, when all a lot of us really want is just one commonly shared language for all our RPGs. With new management, now is the time to start sorting this out. 

I didn’t play in Glorantha back in the day, and for the most part my experience lies solely with what I have experienced from the Moon Design team. That said, they are officially endorsed by Greg Stafford for their work and from all accounts are huge fans of the setting from the beginning too. I don’t know what you are referring to when you suggest that they are presenting a different world. Specifically, what is different? 

 

[Baron]

Sir, I don't appreciate a conversation degenerating into slinging terms such as "incredibly whiney." I'm right here, and I don't consider that to be well-mannered in the least.

If you'd like to be civil, I might consider a discussion with you. Possibly. Although I think what I wrote was clear.

[TrippyHippy]

You weren’t clear on how Glorantha has changed under Moon Design? 

EDIT: And I apologise if you took offence. My feelings are that it’s still quite a lot of melodrama based upon, what is currently just a load of speculation as it stands though. Just keep playing the games you like, and lets see how things pan out is my view. There isn’t anything in this announcement that stops anybody from doing that. 

 

Edited July 31, 2015 by TrippyHippy

[tooley1chris]

We've all got opinions on different systems and versions of them. Speculation is charging emotions. Let's allow everyone to express them without attacking each other or their posts, please.

[RFVictor]

(...) Moon Design, whose business model seems to consist of presenting a Glorantha that is very much at odds with the version originally presented to us way back when I became a fan. This is really a significant negative for me.

 

Hello Baron. My first Glorantha book was a Moon Design one (Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes), I'd love to know more about how it changed since the old Chaosium days, specailly since I never knew of a divide among fans of the setting. Do tell!

[K Peterson]

So, to summarize. I've been a fan and customer since the early, early days. My Cthulhu is gone, my Runequest is gone, and now the entire BRP collection of “other” games has been packed away.

I guess we're done, Chaosium. You no longer have anything to offer me. It's over, and it's a damned shame. But since I decided to stop buying Dungeons and Dragons products altogether in 1989, I suppose I'll survive this too.

I can sympathize with this general sentiment, and understand how frustrating it can be to be "fired as a fan". It sucks. But it's prevalent throughout the decades of gaming history - no better example exists than with the changes that have come with the various editions of D&D. I think it happens to all of us as we get older and keep gaming.

But, as others have stated, regardless of whether a game line has been "killed off", no one is going to come into your home and take your Rpgs away from you. And as long as you have other gamers to play with these Rpgs will never really be "gone". Keep playing them; find players who enjoy playing them; and continue talking about them. There's no need to "stay current" if you don't want to. Break out Stormbringer 1st, or CoC1-6e, or Thieves' World and play them. Get some enjoyment out of them. If Chaosium doesn't want your money, f*ck 'em.

I feel similarly: I have no interest in CoC7 and find RQ6 a little too complex for my tastes. But I have a metric-crapton of CoC material for 3e-6e - more than I could play the rest of my lifetime, probably. And I have plenty of editions of RQ. And I've got a bunch of Elric! rpg material. I don't really need Chaosium anymore, and my gaming or outlook won't suffer for it.

[threedeesix]

I would just like to point out that this isn't a case of some big evil company coming in and shutting down Chaosium. Any anger people are feeling should not be directed at Moon Design as they didn't run your favorite company into the ground.

Chaosium was dying of a self-inflicted gunshot wound and Moon Design had two options, step in and save them from extinction, or stand by and watch them die. Had they chose the latter, there would be no more COC, BRP, or Monographs either. But along with that travesty, there would be no Chaosium as well; one of the oldest gaming companies still in existence. At no point has it been mentioned that BRP was going to be cut loose, just that it isn't to be a priority. Well, just a reality check, it wasn't for the original owners either.

It wouldn't be wise for a company stepping in to save another, to just keep making the same mistakes that got the original in so much trouble to begin with. Moon Design seems to have the long-term survival of Chaosium in its best interest. Let’s give them a chance to succeed.

What I want you to take away from this the most is there wasn't going to be any more BRP anyway if Chaosium was left to die.

Rod

Edited August 1, 2015 by threedeesix

[Nakana]

To be fair, I've no resentment toward Moon Design. The cause of my feelings right now is that it appears their plans to save Chaosium do not sync with what I hoped. That's my issue... not theirs. 

I will patiently wait to see what happens, but my fervor has all but died. 

[SDLeary]

I would just like to point out that we have no real idea of what Chaosium's product line will be in the future, other than the fact that it will include CoC, RQ6, HQ, and BRP and MW. Being a lower priority doesn't equate death. We won't know the exact status of BRP/BGB or MW until they actually announce something.

And just to add a bit of speculation to my own post... 

Most of the systems in RQ6 could easily be pulled out and placed in a revised BGB right along side those that are already there. Imagine the possibilities then!

SDLeary

[Nakana]

I think part of the problem is that the GenCon seminar was sort of hyped up as being THE announcement that would clue all the rest of us in as to what to expect in the future from Chaosium, yet there was so much that was NOT addressed it has left a vacuum; a vacuum quickly filled with doubt. 

As I've said elsewhere, the seminar seems to have raised more questions than it answered. 

Edited August 1, 2015 by Nakana

[ORtrail]

I will wait and see how things go over the next few months or so.  I always hoped that someday, somehow, BRP would get a big push as a universal system for any genre you wanted to play.  That there would be a license or setting that interested a decent amount of gamers out there.

I've said it before, but the older I get the less I want to learn the "lastest and greatest" gaming system. Not when I can use a system I'm so comfortable with, that requires fairly minimal effort on my part.  So, part of the worry about BRP is just me being a bit lazy. 

Well, if BRP is pushed to the side by Chaosium, I hope we get some really crazy sales to help us add to our BRP gaming material collections.  Really though, how hard would it be to at least keep the PDF versions around? 

 

[SDLeary]

I will wait and see how things go over the next few months or so.  I always hoped that someday, somehow, BRP would get a big push as a universal system for any genre you wanted to play.  That there would be a license or setting that interested a decent amount of gamers out there.

I've said it before, but the older I get the less I want to learn the "lastest and greatest" gaming system. Not when I can use a system I'm so comfortable with, that requires fairly minimal effort on my part.  So, part of the worry about BRP is just me being a bit lazy. 

Well, if BRP is pushed to the side by Chaosium, I hope we get some really crazy sales to help us add to our BRP gaming material collections.  Really though, how hard would it be to at least keep the PDF versions around? 

 

This.

And if anyone wants to play around... there is also the d100II SRD floating around out there. Make your own house version.

SDLeary

[Hexelis]

I'm curious what Ben might have to tell us on the Brp front.

[Simlasa]

Perhaps some of the mooted upcoming supplements, like Classic Fantasy will put a different emphasis on the rules presented.

 

Luther Arkwright is already pushing new potentials. I hope this news won't glitch any of those projects... like Classic Fantasy or Chronicles of Future Earth.
 I've been warming up to RQ6 but I'm not particularly interested in Glorantha...

Likewise, I wonder if this puts the kaibosh on seeing any more BRP excellence from Alephtar.

[nclarke]

I can't see Chaosium actually revoking licenses for BRP-based products but when/if they come up for renewal there might be some changes. AFAIK Chaosium used the licensing to get product to sell at full price through their web site to maximise revenue (no distributor discounts). This tactic worked in that they finally paid off a large amount of their debt from the 90's.

If you use a no hit location option and eliminate the combat special effects then the core of RQ6 is pretty close to BRP. The free firearms pdf adds in some of the options still missing and it's really only the space and superhero stuff that is left out. I'm personally cold to the whole superhero genre so that's not a loss for me and I can use Cthulhu Rising as a base or even River of Heaven if I want BRP style space stuff. The RQ6 Essentials package gives me the basis for Fantasy/S&S games without too  much need to house ruling anyway.

[RosenMcStern]

Likewise, I wonder if this puts the kaibosh on seeing any more BRP excellence from Alephtar.

Ah, this I can answer without waiting for Ben or Rick or Loz making more official announcements.

Well, this might prevent you from seeing any more Alephtar products with "B", "R" and "P" printed side by side in that order on a badge on the front cover. Or with a small dragon next to them.

However, if you are not emotionally invested in little badges, I can assure you that whatever it happens you will see the exact same quantity and quality as before. Possibly more, if you allow me a little boasting.

[soltakss]

And if anyone wants to play around... there is also the d100II SRD floating around out there. Make your own house version.

Also, don't forget Legend - near enough to RQ to be compatible, but can also be customised.

 

Well, this might prevent you from seeing any more Alephtar products with "B", "R" and "P" printed side by side in that order on a badge on the front cover. Or with a small dragon next to them.

However, if you are not emotionally invested in little badges, I can assure you that whatever it happens you will see the exact same quantity and quality as before. Possibly more, if you allow me a little boasting.

Which is good. 

I know when I wrote for Alephtar Games, I always wrote in a space that was between BRP and RQ, so having Alephtar D100 supplements for RuneQuest wouldn't be the end of the world, for me in any case.

If Chaosium concentrate on Glorantha, that allows other companies to concentrate on Alternate/Mythic Earth and other settings. This allows each company to keep focussed on what they do best and allows fans to pick and choose their settings.

 

People are entitled to their views, and certainly their tastes, but the last post just strikes me as incredibly whiney. 

I used to think this was a nice forum, which is one of the reasons I come here.

Personal attacks are for other forums, not this one.

 

A lot of people had problems with RQ3, with how Greg Stafford left Chaosium, with how Glorantha has changed, with how RQ and Glorantha are tied together, with how BRP should be a separate system with a separate fan base. I know people who will only play RQ2, as anything newer is heretical. I also know people who will only use RQ2, Cults of Prax and maybe Cults of Terror, believing anything else is unnecessary. I know a lot of people who play RQ and would never, ever, play in Glorantha. Many people only play in their own homebrews and don't play in any published setting. Many of these people will have concerns over what is happening at the moment, so rubbishing their views doesn't help anyone at all.

 

 

 

[Chaot]

By the way, I do want to offer a very heartfelt congratulations to Pete, Loz and the good people at DM.  This change is pretty huge and you've got some exciting times ahead.  I do wish you all the best with it.  Please don't forget us MW folk in your future plans.

 

Edit: I meant MD.  DM and MD team up!

Edited August 1, 2015 by Chaot

[Rich Tom]

I Like RQ but Love MW. Loved COC up to 6th ed. I have liked but never loved Glorantha and I wouldn't be getting too involved if MW magicked into a Glorantha world based game. Am I wrong to feel a bit panicky? 

Potentially getting rid of games creates customer resistance, who move on. I suspect that Sandy, Greg and Moon Publishing have considered this and they will create a product line to appeal to the people handing over the USDs. (Including me).

I understand that MW won't be a priority. It wasn't before either. Maybe it'll just be left to slowly grow and blossom in the same way it was before Moon publishing got involved. They might even have some good ideas for it, (hope so).

Edited August 1, 2015 by Rich Tom

[tooley1chris]

We need Ben to sit Rick Meints, Jeff Richards, Michael O'Brien, and Niel Robinson down for a session of MW.

Anyone I've ever introduced to it really like it.

Do wish our Chaosium Ambassador would chime in.

[TrippyHippy]

I used to think this was a nice forum, which is one of the reasons I come here.

Personal attacks are for other forums, not this one.

 

A lot of people had problems with RQ3, with how Greg Stafford left Chaosium, with how Glorantha has changed, with how RQ and Glorantha are tied together, with how BRP should be a separate system with a separate fan base. I know people who will only play RQ2, as anything newer is heretical. I also know people who will only use RQ2, Cults of Prax and maybe Cults of Terror, believing anything else is unnecessary. I know a lot of people who play RQ and would never, ever, play in Glorantha. Many people only play in their own homebrews and don't play in any published setting. Many of these people will have concerns over what is happening at the moment, so rubbishing their views doesn't help anyone at all.

With respect, the post I responded to had been making what amounted to personal attacks on Moon Design, Robin Laws, Greg Stafford and others. Saying ‘whiney’ was probably not the best choice of language, admittedly. 

However, nobody has really addressed my core question about what is it that Moon Design have done to Glorantha that makes people feel it isn’t the same as the Glorantha as old? 

[SDLeary]

I'm curious what Ben might have to tell us on the Brp front.

I'm sure he will chime in after things at Gen Con have concluded.

SDLeary

[Guest Vile Traveller]

This.

And if anyone wants to play around... there is also the d100II SRD floating around out there. Make your own house version.

SDLeary

While the original goal in writing the D100II SRD was to allow people to play the Gloranthan Classics without resorting to auction sites for their RQ2 rulebook, I had also hoped that there might be some people who would write Gateway adventures in the manner of Judges Guild and the like. Sadly that doesn't seem to have happened. Maybe when GLYPHMASTER™ is done ...

Trippy, unfortunately the answer to your question about what has changed between the RQ2 Glorantha and the current HW Glorantha is likely to fill several encyclopediae. Before the internet "Gregging" was a commonly-used term in the RQ community for retro-conning, which caused quite a few problems for campaigns back in the day so the issue wasn't born with Moon Design. Suffice to say that the Glorantha presented in the RQ2 and RQ3 era was substantially different, and infinitely simpler to get a handle on, than the Glorantha of today. Even back in the 80s people complained that Glorantha gave RQ too steep an entry learning curve. This may not matter if you're content to stick with older products, but most people who game in a published setting expect to expand their campaign with official material so those changes can be disorienting at best and contradictory at worst.

Of course, change has two possible outcomes, fans either like it or they don't, and there are plenty of people in both camps in this case. I find myself very much in Baron's position so I tend to ignore post-RQ2 Glorantha as being just too exhausting for me to keep up with, never mind the fact that the changes to a more mythic emphasis run counter to my personal gaming taste. While I rather like RQ6 I had hoped that it would remain forever separate from Glorantha outside the realm of supplements, I was even a teeny bit disappointed that the setting used in the book for examples proved so popular. Since WoW I have always hoped that the RQ engine could be the GURPS alternative, but all Chaosium product lines seem destined to be firmly tied to particular settings.

Anyway, I await further news. If anyone wants to get some D100II adventures out there, you know where to find me.

EDIT: Oh, and I hope there will be a decent company forum software! I gave up on the Moon Design one long ago, and I was incredibly relieved that The Design Mechanism got rid of their first version.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Vile

[Questbird]

that is not dead witch can eturnel lie     and on our bookshelfs none of our games are dead inless we ourselfs let them die 

I always said that about Elric! and I still play it.

[soltakss]

However, nobody has really addressed my core question about what is it that Moon Design have done to Glorantha that makes people feel it isn’t the same as the Glorantha as old? 

In RQ2 days, we had a focus on Prax/Pavis, with a bit of material in Balazar and some troll stuff. It was focussed and clear - Sartarite rebels fought the Lunars; trolls fought elves, dwarves, chaos and some humans, but liked some humans; Balazaring hunters carried on regardless.

RQ3 brought along more material on Prax, but that's about it, OK Sun County is Yelmalian but still in Prax. Gods of Glorantha expanded to include lots more cults, but didn't change the emphasis.

For both RQ2/RQ3, Orlanthi were a cult of Adventurers, even though the other Orlanthi cults were mentioned but not emphasised.

Hero Wars had a heavy emphasis on Heortlings, as Orlanthi were now called. They were now clan based, with a lot of material covering clan activity,l farming, herding, cattle raids, legal issues and clan feuds. The Lunar-Orlanthi rivalry was there, but de-emphasised. The Sartar Rising supplements brought back the Lunar-Orlanthi conflict. Virtually nothing was said about Prax, apart from "Everyone is bored of Prax, let's do something else".

HeroQuest kept the emphasis on the Heortlings, but other cultures were covered by third party publishers. It also expanded the knowledge about Glorantha by covering other areas, with a lot of coverage of the Lunar Empire and the West, culminating with the Guide to Glorantha. Hortlings, especially Sartarites, were covered in Sartar and Sartar Companion, Pavis was covered in the Pavis book.

Recent Glorantha has diluted the original focus on Prax, Pavis and more Prax, which some people feel has changed how they feel about Glorantha. Cults of Prax was groundbreaking in many ways, as it created a sourcebook with a very local feel to it. Borderlands simply continued that feel, as did Pavis and the Big Rubble.

 

Personally, I feel that the new Gloranthan material is excellent, but I have always liked the history and cultures of Glorantha. For many years, I have asked "What about Sartar?" Now, we know an awful lot about Sartar. I am not so keen on the West, Kralorela or Pamaltela, to be honest, as they are not areas of Glorantha that interest me, particularly, but I am glad that they are covered in a certain level of detail. My question now is "What about the Hero Wars?", as that is an area of Glorantha that really interests me,