Jon Hunter Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Ok i.m sure this has been done to death before, but juts coming up to speed with discussions. Runequest has always had bronze chainmail in its armor lists etc, RW bronze was never made into chainmail and doesn't have the properties for it how is this reconciled? Giving Gloranthan bronze different properties than RW bronze? Writing chainmail out of your Glorantha? A bit of both? Making chain-mail an iron only armor type? Any of suggestions /accommodations? Cheers Jon Quote www.backtobalazar.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard S. Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Well Gloranthan bronze isn't actually real bronze anyways, that's just an easy way to identity it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roko Joko Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) No need for bronze mail IMG, especially with the current bronze age styling. There can still be bronze scale armor. But if you can make mail out of aluminum or lead, say, that's another reason to wear those other metals. Edited February 12, 2018 by Roko Joko 2 Quote What really happened? The only way to discover that is to experience it yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Jon Hunter said: Ok i.m sure this has been done to death before, but juts coming up to speed with discussions. Runequest has always had bronze chainmail in its armor lists etc, RW bronze was never made into chainmail and doesn't have the properties for it how is this reconciled? Giving Gloranthan bronze different properties than RW bronze? Writing chainmail out of your Glorantha? A bit of both? Making chain-mail an iron only armor type? Any of suggestions /accommodations? It's Glorantha. I haven't seen any RW chainmail made of Lead or Gold or Aluminium either, but they are definitely in Glorantha. 2 Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonL Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) RW bronze is an alloy of copper and tin and is rarely if ever found in nature. G bronze is the fragments of dead gods' bones and you can dig it up out of the ground where they fell. Their properties are somewhat different. Edited February 12, 2018 by JonL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonh Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I’m sure I remember reading tha Gloranthan bronze is somewhat more ductile than ours. Simon Hibbs 1 Quote Check out the Runequest Glorantha Wiki for RQ links and resources. Any updates or contributions welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psullie Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Bronze (from the classical era) is a very loose term to describe a wide range of copper alloys made with a host of additives. Some were deliberate concoctions for special purposes (hardness, brightness, etc.) others were accidental simply based on what raw materials were at hand and recycled. Perhaps Gloranthan bronze is equally diverse and that famous mines like Volsaxiland and Enneserach are just particularly good quality seams. Unless well provisioned, smiths made what the did form what was available, which is probably why different regions become known for quality of a particular product (bronze for a plow has different requirements than bronze for tableware). Even the chieftain's grave at Ciumeşti, which gives us the earliest Earth examples of chainmail (iron) contained bronze greaves. So I'd imagine that in Glorantha, where 'bronze' is far more readily available than iron, it gets coopted into all manner of uses, even those where iron would be better suited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankcam Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 57 minutes ago, simonh said: I’m sure I remember reading tha Gloranthan bronze is somewhat more ductile than ours. Simon Hibbs That's because it's not really bronze, it's actually Hu-metal (of which the closest real world approximation is bronze, for the sake of an anology) Quote " Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavetheLost Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I am quite happy imagining that Gloranthan bronze has somewhat different properties to our real world bronzes. I see the word "bronze" as being the closest English translation and closest Earth metal in properties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Mohrfield Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 1 hour ago, simonh said: I’m sure I remember reading tha Gloranthan bronze is somewhat more ductile than ours. Simon Hibbs It's in the RQ3 Glorantha Book (Book 5) under "Rune Metals" on page 16. As far as I know, it's never been either explicitly confirmed or denied in any post-RQ3 source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenx Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I'd go somewhere in the middle and make bronze chainmail be quite possible, but kind of rare and maybe only found amongst specific cultures. So if your Dragon Pass character has a chainmail it might be an interesting character hook as to how on earth they got a hold of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I'm sure the Dwarves can make bronze chainmail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Hunter Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) I did some digging RQG doesn't have bronze chainmail, or any chain mail for that matter . I suppose the background issues here are the dichotomy of "Glorantha is different than the RW" and the push for bronze age realism within the setting. Edited February 13, 2018 by Jon Hunter 2 Quote www.backtobalazar.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I said this before, but it bears repeating: IMO Godsbone brass or bronze is a natural laminate, with growth rings creating a layered effect that is impossible to achieve with just melting copper and tin. Godsbone needs to be hammered to retain those properties and cannot simply be cast into whichever shape you think is convenient to achieve. The mostali might actually have a process of damascening brass to a similar effect. They refer to the metal by the name derived from the volcano/mountain deities exclusively, regarding the birth of Umath as the disastrous destruction of their world machine, and while they are happy to work storm-originated godsbone, they won't refer to it as such. Chainmail requires access to rather thick wire of the metal in question. Now producing wire isn't foreign to Gloranthan metal artisans - gold, pewter, and probably copper and bronze as well are shaped into wires before leaving e.g. pearl-like ornaments melted onto a bigger piece of ornamental metal, like e.g. a cloak clasp or a belt buckle. Producing this wire is a time-intensive task, however, and requires at least a journeyman's skill. Producing enough thick wire for even a small piece of mail armor (maybe little more than a curtain to attach to a helmet to protect the neck) will take up quite a lot of reliable wire. But then there is another question when it comes to Gloranthan armor: does anyone but the iron mostali walk around in an impervious shell of metal, or is armor more a statement of protection, expanded by sympathetic magic to cover slightly more than it actually does? Does armor "magically" attract weapon hits? If so, plate greaves and what we would name "ceremonial" bits of metal plate worn on chest or abdomen would be a lot more effective than SCA experience would suggest. 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Cooper Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Chain mail has certainly declined in usage in our art direction etc. in favour of scale mail. Simply because, as others point out, chain mail is more of a late dark ages thing. I am sure dwarves make iron chain mail, but I suspect that bronze is uncommon. I would treat references to mail as scale, unless it is a god or hero, in which case it might well be dwarf mail. I know Orlanth has a hauberk of mail called Turnspear. That might well be something he 'stole' from the Mostali, and iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaydet Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Pretty sure that the Marian legions used chainmail as their primary body armor, if we're looking for historical justifications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fulk Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Yes. But they would be using iron, not bronze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, fulk said: Yes. But they would be using iron, not bronze. Becuase they had iron to use. Historically, it's not so much that bronze mail isn't possible but that by the time a culture had the metallurgical skills to manufacture mail, they had discovered how to work iron. Bronze mail is quite possible in RW, but as iron is generally lighter and stronger than bronze (and often less expensive), it's preferable to make armor our of iron. In Glorantha, runic Iron (not really the same as terrestrial iron), is a rare, somewhat divine substance, and armorers are forced to work with Glorantha Bronze (again, not really the same as the terrestrial metal) due to the relative scarcity of Iron. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Helsdon Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) Chain mail (as interlinked rings) dates back to around the 4th Century BC in western Europe, becoming more common from the 3rd Century BC, and being copied by the Romans as lorica hamate. An example found at a Romano-British temple at Woodeaton was made of iron and bronze links - the bronze fittings may have been decorative. Roman Republic/Empire 'stuff' now tends to lie outside the catchment zone for inspiration for human Gloranthan cultures. For Glorantha, given the technical knowledge required, as well as the expense, it's probably best viewed as Mostali, with human smiths unlikely to have knowledge of its manufacture. Edited February 17, 2018 by M Helsdon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fulk Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 My only rather lame point being that Marius' Mules were iron age, not bronze age. So, not an example of bronze chain mail. I would remove chain mail for a more bronze age feel, if that is what you want, YGMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 In RQG, chainmail is not in the core rules - which is my way of saying that humans in the greater Dragon Pass region (including the Lunar Empire and the Holy Country) don't make it. BUT when you get the Bestiary, you will see that the iron dwarf example is armoured with iron chain mail. And man it is good armor. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOB Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 On 13/02/2018 at 7:35 AM, Psullie said: Bronze (from the classical era) is a very loose term to describe a wide range of copper alloys made with a host of additives. Some were deliberate concoctions for special purposes (hardness, brightness, etc.) others were accidental simply based on what raw materials were at hand and recycled. Perhaps Gloranthan bronze is equally diverse and that famous mines like Volsaxiland and Enneserach are just particularly good quality seams. As the gods are diverse, so too must be the bronze of their bones. We already have the example of different magic crystals, said to be created from blood of wounded and dead gods. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Bronze mined directly from the bones of Air gods is RARE. Most Gloranthan bronze is a mixture of copper (Earth) and tin (Sky). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noita Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 I could swear i have seen the complete opposite of that posted in the past. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scott Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) Ignoring history and looking at what we know exists, bronze mail does seem to exist - just not in the form we'd expect. It seems that it was used as decorative edging on iron mail. The material was a bronze alloy called Latten and it looks like gold - hence it's decorative role. Mail shirt at the Wallace collection in London http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMuseumPlus?service=direct/1/ResultLightboxView/result.t1.collection_lightbox.$TspTitleImageLink.link&sp=10&sp=Scollection&sp=SfieldValue&sp=0&sp=1&sp=2&sp=Slightbox_3x4&sp=0&sp=Sdetail&sp=0&sp=F&sp=T&sp=2 Mail standard at the Wallace collection in London http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMuseumPlus?service=direct/1/ResultLightboxView/result.t2.collection_lightbox.$TspTitleLink.link&sp=10&sp=Scollection&sp=SfieldValue&sp=0&sp=2&sp=2&sp=Slightbox_3x4&sp=0&sp=Sdetail&sp=0&sp=F&sp=T&sp=3 both have it as the edging. The consensus seems to be that the reason that bronze mail wasn't made is that it was more difficult to work with as it was brittle and that iron was much more plentiful. Why use an inferior material. I realise that Gloranthan bronze to only analogous to real bronze so there must be another reason - Have you ever watched someone making mail? We've a guy at our group who links mail while gaming (much like those who knit while gaming). He's buys wire (it's not iron but a softer alloy) so he's not doing the drawing process through plates or hammering it down. He wraps it round a core to get the tiny diameter required, then snips it in to rings. Then he uses pliers to bend open the ring, attaches it to the appropriate place (it's 1 to 4 mail) then bends the ring closed. It's really time consuming. This isn't even the riveted kind (I've no idea how long that would take) or the ring to scale kind (quicker as there is a scale disc in the mix). Just the needle nosed pliers would be the magic bit. The harder the metal the more strength required. I'm wondering who would be able to make the tools required to do this in bronze age Glorantha and who would have the time! This is clearly dwarven magic! BTW if you like swords and armour, and are visiting London - most people miss the Wallace Collection in the heart of the West end as they believe it's just paintings, cookery and fancy room with furniture. It has an excellent arms and armour collection spread through 5 galleries. https://www.wallacecollection.org Edited February 19, 2018 by David Scott 2 Quote ----- Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.