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4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Harmast didn't take the core LBQ with him on his journey to the west. He found the rudiments when he got there and put them together in a new system. 

Whatever rite the lifebringers originally used to repair the world is a now matter for conjecture.

This is dumb?  I had always assumed it!  Ooops... 

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I am confident that Argrath is just a trickster way in over his head.

Wow, this has been my favourite thread here at BRP Central for a long, long time - and I feel like by reading it I've added a significant percentage on to my chance of Illumination next Sacred Time.

@Jeff posted this in the RuneQuest FB group: to which Matthew Cole commented as follows:  

Posted Images

My dumb theory is that we can discuss this stuff intelligently.

Content warning: this post considers rape as an allegory for abusive imperialism. (Don't ever trivialise rape, kiddies! Don't play games with it, and never abuse your players by forcing it on them and/or their supporting cast of NPCs, while you snicker and frot yourself behind a screen, you monster)

King of Sartar is a deep and complex book. There's a natural temptation to treat it as if it's nothing more a heap of unpublished manuscripts from the eighties that Greg shovelled into one paperback, using the wafer-thin excuse of "multiple contradictory sources" to get away with not revising everything for consistency. But the more you study it, the more it pays off (cf. my seminal article Triumph of the Lunar Cosmos, a close textual reading of the climax of Argrath's Saga).

Here's a thought that struck me fairly recently re: the obviously and entirely problematic Thed myth on p.66 (of the current edition), The Greater Darkness, in which a mistreated goddess first elects to become the Goddess of Rape, before going on to literally destroy the world.

Should we see Argrath as following in Thed's cloven hoofprints?

He and his people have been cruelly wronged and mistreated by the Lunars, sure. But in his quest for justice (and revenge), he becomes a world-breaker, making things immeasurably worse, and inflicting on others the worst atrocities that he and his people suffered.

This reading is, frankly, the best justification I have yet seen for the inclusion of that odd, discordant Thed myth in King of Sartar. And whether or not that was the author’s intent, the parallels are striking.

(Incidentally, re-reading Ron Edwards’ article Goddess of Rape 17 years later (see also his follow-up comments, here), it now strikes me that Thed isn't the only goddess who manifests in the world as a bleeding wound and makes possible the transition to a better world to come).

I just wanted to bookmark that thought.

Edited by Nick Brooke
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38 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

But in his quest for justice (and revenge), he becomes a world-breaker, making things immeasurably worse, and inflicting on others the worst atrocities that he and his people suffered.

The manifestation of Argrath/Arkat as the Devil who deceives and devours the gods.

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11 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The manifestation of Argrath/Arkat as the Devil who deceives and devours the gods.

Yes, but the key for me is realising that Argrath had undeniably been wronged, himself, before going on to do far worse wrongs, essentially becoming the bad thing he had begun by opposing and protesting.

Just like Thed.

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5 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Harmast didn't take the core LBQ with him on his journey to the west. He found the rudiments when he got there and put them together in a new system. 

Whatever rite the lifebringers originally used to repair the world is a now matter for conjecture.

I thought we were aiming at dumb theories here, and you are spilling deep Gloranthan truths instead. People will have to roll their Glorantha lore next sacred time, and may end up illuminated.

Harmast did two LBQs, and I dare say with different experiences on his Westfaring. Both started at the Hill of Orlanth Victorious, but that may be the only thing they had in common.

If it is true that you can do a real heroquest only once in any given role, then Harmast's second quest must have placed him in a different role - such as Flesh Man. That's how Garundyer's two Lightbringers' Quests at the 1996 run of Rise of Ralios turned out, the first led by Aruzban Ironarm in the role of Orlanth.

(They received Arkat he Liberator as their reward, and after a while they were unhappy about the result, so they went again looking for a light to retrieve. They went to look for Nysalor, which they did, retrieving them from a deeper quest following the steps of the Red Goddess, returning astride on the Sky Bear.)

 

To keep on topic: the dumb idea behind this was in the write-up of some of the Ralian Orlanthi, who were staunch supporters of Nysalor who deeply regretted his passing, and who still harbor good will to the lost Lord of Light after the depredations they suffered from the Autarchy and later the God Learners.

Edited by Joerg
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2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

My dumb theory is that we can discuss this stuff intelligently.

Content warning: this post considers rape as an allegory for abusive imperialism. (Don't ever trivialise rape, kiddies! Don't play games with it, and never abuse your players by forcing it on them and/or their supporting cast of NPCs, while you snicker and frot yourself behind a screen, you monster)

King of Sartar is a deep and complex book. There's a natural temptation to treat it as if it's nothing more a heap of unpublished manuscripts from the eighties that Greg shovelled into one paperback, using the wafer-thin excuse of "multiple contradictory sources" to get away without revising anything. But the more you study it, the more it pays off (cf. my seminal article Triumph of the Lunar Cosmos, a close textual reading of the climax of Argrath's Saga).

Here's a thought that struck me fairly recently re: the obviously and entirely problematic Thed myth on p.66 (of the current edition), The Greater Darkness, in which a mistreated goddess first elects to become the Goddess of Rape, before going on to literally destroy the world.

Should we see Argrath as following in Thed's cloven hoofprints?

He and his people have been cruelly wronged and mistreated by the Lunars, sure. But in his quest for justice (and revenge), he becomes a world-breaker, making things immeasurably worse, and inflicting on others the worst atrocities that he and his people suffered.

This reading is, frankly, the best justification I have yet seen for the inclusion of that odd, discordant Thed myth in King of Sartar. And whether or not that was the author’s intent, the parallels are striking.

(Incidentally, re-reading Ron Edwards’ article Goddess of Rape 17 years later (see also his follow-up comments, here), it now strikes me that Thed isn't the only goddess who manifests in the world as a bleeding wound and makes possible the transition to a better world to come).

I just wanted to bookmark that thought.

But after Ragnaglar assaults Thed, she actively collaborates with him and Manillia to create Wakboth, how wolud that fit? I know his final act ultimately benefits the lunar path, but does Argrath collaborate with some lunar power?

Also Ragnaglar, if you follow the Heortling myth, is broken in a similar way to Thed, only by other gods. I have always thinked that tale was a representation of how the gods, and not only the chaos ones, all of them, were at fault for the great darkness. Is Argrath also a victim of the Gods War?

 

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2 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

does Argrath collaborate with some lunar power?

He cooperates plenty with the future leader of the Shadow Moon Empire, Sheng Seleris

and his cooperation with Sheng prepares the way for Ralzakark and the Monster Empire

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8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The original leader of the Lifebringers was Lightfore/Yelmalio.  The Truth of this is revealed each and every day.

The secret of the Hill of Gold is not that Orlanth stole a weapon from Yelmalio, but that he stole the quest secret from the cult and used it to refashion the LBQ in his name.

Damn, another +1% to my illumination roll...

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8 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Yes, but the key for me is realising that Argrath had undeniably been wronged, himself, before going on to do far worse wrongs, essentially becoming the bad thing he had begun by opposing and protesting.

Just like Thed.

Or Arkat.

Really, in Glorantha, if you think violence will solve your problems, it will just make more problems and if you think copious amounts of violence will solve your problems, you become a monster.

(Also, if you have a vision for improving Glorantha which requires violence to implement, you also end up like this.)

 

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Not a theory about the world but about the game. 

The existence of a (very beautiful) map that depicts the southern part of the Empire that comes with the Gamemaster screen pack means that a source and/or campaign book centered around that area will be released. Which would make me the happiest as that's my favorite part of Glorantha and criminally underdeveloped by earlier editions. 

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On 7/26/2020 at 1:08 PM, MJ Sadique said:

Whizbang theory My favorite of all !

About my personal dumbest theory started aeons ago just after playing Hawkmoon and my first RuneQuest master explain my what runequest was (rq3) after a long explain,
-I just said : I understand everything, it's not a complicated world. (Goddamn, I regret saying this this today)
-My first GM : And what do you think ?
-
Pretty simple, First the actual world is born after a big disaster, probably a moon or a big asteroid crashing upon the world and destroying the ancients continents. So the world axe flip an the real fire sun now only light the southern part creating the pamalt land of fire, and the nothern part without the big sun is now an eternal ice kingdom. And what people think about the "Spike", the magical castle of the gods, is probably an Orbital Base link to an giant orbital lifter and I think that the giant mountain Kerofinela is surely the base of the orbital Lifter, a great place of power where we could get some cool "magical items".
-GM : And the actual sun of glorantha who go from east to west ?
-Easy, when planet axe flip, the orbital lift was broken and the top star base got broken in piece, the Gravity Ring which hold habitation became the Juggernaut, the giant wheel, another part probably the central crystal computer was use the destroy wakboth creating the Block of prax and the Core of the base with the reactor is still burning and orbiting in the space creating the actual sun "yelmalio" the little sun...
-GM : And What about the God's magic ?
-I think when chaos invade this world, the most powerful at this time could not beat it so someone invented a complex ritual to flew away in a higher dimension, so the great compromise is just most powerfull one ascending/Cowardly-escaping to another plane. The only powerful one which choose to stay protecting the human is probably Zzabur who use is magic to crash a little moon on the surface, ending the war only with the help of surviving humans.

-GM : So you think that Zzabur is the saviour of mankind ! Interesting and why ?
-Because almost e-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y hate him, the Gods, the chamans and even most of western fear him as a God of sorcery or the evil sorcerer. If so much people hate him and only a tiny group of immortal follow him, he is certainly the only good-guy out there ! Like Hades, the most fearsome and terrifying one is surely the only human friendly one and good guy among the immortals !
-GM : So you what character do you want to play ? An orlanthi, a lunar opposing the gods ...
-Nope, I will no pray the cowards gods and surely not chaos; Orlanth vs Redmoon is like the Bad vs Evil and only the worst of them will win. I will always play a malkioni, with a preference to the ones who follow Zzabur laws.

Few years after I started mastering RQ because the "secrets of Glorantha" was so appealing ... I did not think this "not so complicated" was so vast and complex.

Today I call it the Hawkmoon-Orbital + Stargate-Escaping-Gods theory... And I recall it whenever I heard about the Outer Atomic Explorer !

Actually plausible as a late 4th Age Myth ...

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On 10/16/2020 at 12:59 PM, Nick Brooke said:

Yes, but the key for me is realising that Argrath had undeniably been wronged, himself, before going on to do far worse wrongs, essentially becoming the bad thing he had begun by opposing and protesting.

Just like Thed.

It's also, I think, worth noting how much abuse can become a generational cycle (many abusers were themselves abused when they were younger).

That doesn't excuse them for their own crimes, of course!

 

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On 10/16/2020 at 10:45 PM, jajagappa said:

The manifestation of Argrath/Arkat as the Devil who deceives and devours the gods.

Much like this thread. It starts out dumb, but once you read it the dumb becomes you, and it's actually pretty profound. It was the Gbaji-Nysalor-Arkat swap in forum form all along. 

Now roll for Illumination.

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The reason Chaos got out of hand was that Bjiff's entry into the Underworld drove so many Uz to the surface that the few that remained in Wonderhome could not eat the output of the Chaosium fast enough to maintain the world's proper balance.

Also, the roles of Argin Terror and his Mother are both performed by Tyler Perry.

Edited by JonL
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Not so much dumb as it is an alternative interpretation, but still: 

The Babeester Gor cult is frightsome all right, but its publicly known myths and popular image has been purposely shaped and carefully cultivated by themselves and the associated Earth cults essentially as propaganda to maintain the safety and sacrosanct status of the Earth Goddess cults and their worldly holdings, and to an extent, women in general. Internally, the cult and cultists, and even their secret idea of the goddess herself, is less stereotyped and stark.

It is not so much that Babeester Gorites don't want to kill, but that they consider the formenting of a fearsome public image as part of their strategy to safeguard their charges, one which is a very effective synergy to the much more rare strategy of actually going out and killing people. Propaganda is proactive, long-term and sustainable, vengeance-killing is reactive and usually short-term (barring lengthy chases and vengeance-quests or vendettas), and usually a lot more costly both financially and in womanpower. 

This doesn't imply an overarching, deliberate conspiracy as such, rather it has always been part of the goddess' worshipand internal cult identity to induce dread in others to minimize the risk of violations. 

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  • Barntar can be a transformation of Baran Tor
  • Tor part is used by the Kargan Tor, thus probably has militiant connotations
  • Bar- part is used by one more deity, Baroshi
  • shi- is rare sound but is utilized in the name of Shepelkirt, thus has lunar and chaotic connotations
  • Bar part has earth association

Thus I propose :

  • Bar-an-tor - slasher-at-fields
  • Baroshi - fieldblooded
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We know that the common tendency for some members of the the Three Fifths families of Lunar nobility is to go by an abbreviated form of their family name. The Eel-ariash shorten theirs down to -eel. Thus, Hon-eel, Sor-eel, Jar-eel. 

However, given the frequency of multisyllabic personal names elsewhere in the Empire (Tatius, Appius, etc.) it seems entirely probable that these monosyllabic personal names are also abbreviated forms of longer personal names. 

Jar-eel's entire life and prelife has been carefully shepherded to make her the living avatar of Sedenya. It seems entirely likely her personal name was chosen for this purpose as well, to give her a deep and abiding connection with the Lunar Way and reinforce her mission. 

Her mission thus far: expand the Lunar Way outwards, curtail incorrect forms of the Lunar Way within. There is one particular Lunar hero who expanded it outwards and then fought against deviations from the Way, who has a prominent "Jar" syllable in their name...

Thus, I propose that Jar-eel's full name is "Aronius Jaranthir Eel-ariash" (possibly feminized slightly) and she goes by "Jar-eel" as a spark of personality. 

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The Lunars did not pervert the Lightbringer Quest. They discovered a quest secret.

Orlanth ritually sacrificed Flesh Man in order to follow his spirit to the right place in the Underworld. Chalana Arroy was later introduced into the narrative in order to whitewash Orlanth's reputation.

Edited by Whizbang
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